80% 1911 cutter kit?

Hi guys,

This started out as a scheme to help my cutter grinder guy stay in business, and that remains the ultimate goal, so with that in mind, let me ask a few questions.

I'm working on an 80% 1911, and have looked at some of the 0% cast frames.
This has caused me to wonder just what, exactly, Mr. Browning was smoking. To do the thing to print, you end up having to make a bunch of custom cutters, and even a few custom sized drills and/or reamers. My ponderments about just exactly *why* the thing is designed the way it is to the side, even with a modern 80% frame, you still need one custom dia. ball mill for the barrel bed, and a couple of hard-to-find-for-non-machinist drills and reamers.

With the increasing popularity of 80% frames, do you guys think it would be a viable proposition to set up a website to sell kits of all the various cutters you need to finish off a 1911? (AR's too, but that's easy) It's the weird custom cutters for the 1911 that are really hard to source. Brownells has some of them, but not the big ballmill for the barrel bed. (and they want a mint for what they do have.) So you get a kit with the .696" ball mill for the bed, the 4mm (.1575") drill/reamer combo for the hammer pin, and the #35 drill/reamer set for the sear pin. Plus options of the other weird sized reamers if you need them. (.1558?? WTF?? Good news is that 5/32 is within the tolerance band, but why spec a hole that isn't *any* standard drill size, for no apparent reason??! )

I was also thinking about doing the two little custom woodruff cutters that the 0% people need for doing the mag release and barrel bushing undercuts.
And then there's the .119" saw for doing the slide cuts. (.119? Really? Why couldn't it have been .125? 6 thou mattered that much???)
My inclination would be to do that one as a saw, but I've got small arbors. Many don't. It'll cut cleaner as a saw on a 1/2" or 3/4" arbor, but it'll be cheaper as a woodruff.
Anybody have an opinion?

In reading all the various 1911 sites, I've seen all sorts of different frankenstein tricks for getting around the barrel bed being a freak size, and some of the other drills being downright weird or custom. Nevermind all the weird ways they do the slide cuts. (A dremel with stacked abrasive disks? Seriously??)
Do you think it would be viable to offer a way out of the wilderness? The problem is that the goal here is to keep my cutter guy's lights on. Which means that they won't be 'dirt cheap'. I'd expect the big mill to be about $50, with the other drill & reamer sets being in the $15 range. Don't know yet about the woodruffs or the slide saw, but I'd expect at least $25 ea.

So, what's the collective read on whether or not this is a good idea?

Thanks,
Brian

Brian, sounds like a good idea and a nice thing to help out your cutter guy.....but I don't think there will be enough guys doing the 1911 80% frames to make it worth it....the 1911 80% frames are not produced in enough numbers by enough company's to make worth it, also Tactical Machine is making a 80% frame and also a tool kit to finish the frames, so looks like you might be a bit late at the game....good luck if you go for it...

adc1963 said:

Brian, sounds like a good idea and a nice thing to help out your cutter guy.....but I don't think there will be enough guys doing the 1911 80% frames to make it worth it....the 1911 80% frames are not produced in enough numbers by enough company's to make worth it, also Tactical Machine is making a 80% frame and also a tool kit to finish the frames, so looks like you might be a bit late at the game....good luck if you go for it...

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Yeah, that's kinda what I thought. Although I'm not sure if Tactical is still doing the cutter kits: I got the 80% I'm working on from them, and I vaguely remembered seeing a cutter kit there, but now that I go to look for it, it's nowhere to be found. Ah well.

As long as I've got a thread rolling, does anybody out there know if there are any books about the development of the 1911? There are some *damned* weird design decisions in that thing, and I'd love to know *why*. The .1558" drill hole for one of the pins, the 4 degree tilted clearance hole for the underside of the disconnector -that needs to be drilled by way of shooting all the way through the magwell, at an angle... All sorts of 'why on earth did you do it *that* way???' questions. I can do it all, but if I'm going to be standing on my head to make it happen, I'd at least like to know *why* I'm standing on my head. (Oh, yeah, doing the disconnector clearance hole to print requires two separate ops, and yet another custom cutter. (a specially piloted longshank drill.) Why???)

Seems like Browning was trying to keep an entire company of cutter guys busy.

Thanks,
Brian

For the same $120 your cutter kit costs you can get a finished frame from Sarco. An 80% frame is $160 from Tactical Machining, finished frame from them is only $10 more, quite a bargain. I know which I'd choose. They mention a cutter kit "coming soon" on their 80% page.

Sure there are probably a few nefarious people who don't want a paper trail, or people who just want to do it themselves because it's a hobby and they like it. Lets say you sell them for $120 and have a nice 50% margin on them. Can you sell 2,000 sets a year? How much does your cutter guy need to keep the doors open?

Frank.H said:

For the same $120 your cutter kit costs you can get a finished frame from Sarco. An 80% frame is $160 from Tactical Machining, finished frame from them is only $10 more, quite a bargain. I know which I'd choose. They mention a cutter kit "coming soon" on their 80% page.

Sure there are probably a few nefarious people who don't want a paper trail, or people who just want to do it themselves because it's a hobby and they like it. Lets say you sell them for $120 and have a nice 50% margin on them. Can you sell 2,000 sets a year? How much does your cutter guy need to keep the doors open?

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My goal was never to keep him afloat completely on those, just to get him another revenue stream. Get enough of those together, and you're good. He's a great guy, and one hell of a grinder, but has the entrepreneurial sense of a rutabaga.

As far as the cost goes, at least for the Californians among us, it's irrelevant. You *can't* buy the $170 finished frame. The only two ways to get most 1911s into CA are to either bring it in under the single shot exemption, which only applies to finished weapons, and will be going away soon, or to 80% it. I haven't checked the CA handgun list lately, but there are a great many weapons that are rolling off, and not being replaced.
If I could have, I would quite cheerfully have bought either the tactical frame, or a Caspian recon frame. But I can't. If I want a frame to build to, I can't just buy the frame. It has to be a finished weapon.
I just picked up a Ruger SR11, and had to single shot that, because it's a series 70, and doesn't have all the bells and whistles that they're now requiring. Added an extra $200-ish to bring it in that way. That's why I've been seeing such an interest in 80% frames. It's hard to tell what's going on in the rest of the country, because things are so distorted in CA. Which is part of why I asked, to get a viewpoint outside CA.

Thanks,
Brian

Wow Brian, I really feel bad for the gun lovin people in CA..... what does it mean to single shot it ??

adc1963 said:

Wow Brian, I really feel bad for the gun lovin people in CA..... what does it mean to single shot it ??

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Legal song and dance, plus money, mostly.
You buy the weapon out of state, find an FFL instate that can do the conversion, then have the out of state guy send it to your instate FFL. He then does whatever conversions are required, (details in a sec) and sells you the weapon, after suitable DROS and waiting period.

The 'single shot exemption' bit is that you can buy a weapon that's single shot only, so long as it has a barrel of some minimum length approaching 6-7 inches. (Knowable, but I don't.) without it being on "the list". (The list of CA approved handguns.)
What this means for a 1911 is that you put in an un-removable-without-tools dummy mag to block the magwell, then put in the silliest looking overlength barrel you've ever seen. Now it's a single shot long barrel, and can be sold. You pick it up in this configuration, and then you-yourself-unsnarl it once you've taken possession. Not needing the silly extra parts that somehow came with your new gun, you return them to the FFL. Rinse. Repeat. With DROS and transfer fees, I think it cost me about $200(ish) to do this on the Ruger. Now does it make sense that we (californians) don't care quite so much about the costs of a set of cutters? The other issue is that this particular exercise in guardhouse lawyering will go away on 1/1/15. Then it really will be just 'the list', and nothing but 'the list'. Which is getting smaller by the day.
To be on the list, they're requiring microstamping, which nobody is doing, thus no new guns. Or at least that was my belief, until I checked the CA DOJ site a few minutes ago, and discovered lists of "new approved" handguns, and "newly un-approved" handguns. The new approved list was 2 pages. The list of guns that had lost approval was 49 pages long. What I can't figure out is how there were *any* newly approved weapons, since nobody's making one that microstamps, and you have to have a microstamp for approval. Not sure what the story there is. It's a saga I tune into periodically, whenever I'm feeling like my blood pressure meds are having a good day, but not one I keep up with daily.

Other than that--and house prices, I really like California.
-Brian

I'd be interested in a cutter kit if the price was right.

When JMB designed the 1911, for every row of machines, there'd be a guy making and sharpening the cutters for them. If your design needed a hollow profile form cutter, an odd-size end mill or step drill, or something along that line, it didn't cost any more for a custom than for a "standard" cutter... and if you were very large, you didn't buy those anyway, since you could make your own for cheaper.

Also, a lot of operations were done on single-operation "hand mills" and hand slotters. Colvin & Viall's "US Rifles and Machine Guns" has drawings of all the tooling and operations needed to build the 1903 Springfield; you can see how all that worked.

The Colvin book also shows how, other than some screws, almost every part of the Springfield started as a forging - even the sear, trigger, and sling swivel bits. Forging was relatively inexpensive a hundred years ago, and it provided "near net" blanks that required a minimum amount of machining. Forgings were the MIM of that era.

It is my firm opinion that a number of older military firearms were designed specifically to NOT be easy to make, either to impress others with the mad skillz of their nation, or to raise the bar for copying high enough that an imitator might copy something else. At least, there's no other sane reason why some of those old guns were made the way they were. The C96 Mauser pistol is a good example of that...

Alberic said:

The only two ways to get most 1911s into CA are to either bring it in under the single shot exemption, which only applies to finished weapons, and will be going away soon, or to 80% it. I haven't checked the CA handgun list lately, but there are a great many weapons that are rolling off, and not being replaced.

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Actually that's not true. There is only one way to build a 1911 legally and that is to BUILD it as a single shot exemption.

You should do your homework first, you could be manufacturing a handgun illegally if you don't build it as an SSE.

Yes, SSE is changing as far as converting a semi-automatic handgun to single shot for the sake of purchasing, but that has nothing to do with manufacturing a "dangerous weapon". To circumvent that you have no choice but to build as a single shoot. Maybe you have another way of circumventing PC32000 ?

Most manufacturing violations are 5 years imprisonment, so it could be worth your time to do some research first. Just because someone says something on the internet will not help you much in a court of law.

traditional-tools said:

Actually that's not true. There is only one way to build a 1911 legally and that is to BUILD it as a single shot exemption.

You should do your homework first, you could be manufacturing a handgun illegally if you don't build it as an SSE.

Yes, SSE is changing as far as converting a semi-automatic handgun to single shot for the sake of purchasing, but that has nothing to do with manufacturing a "dangerous weapon". To circumvent that you have no choice but to build as a single shoot. Maybe you have another way of circumventing PC32000 ?

Most manufacturing violations are 5 years imprisonment, so it could be worth your time to do some research first. Just because someone says something on the internet will not help you much in a court of law.

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My understanding of the 'manufacturing' part is that you only need a class 7 if you're planning on selling them. Since I'm going to have absolutely stupid amounts of time and money tied up in this thing by the time I get it done, that's never going to to happen. This is strictly a 'for me, by me' project, largely to see if I can. As a one-off private build, my understanding is that there's no paperwork required. I'll double check this before I finish with the frame, whenever that joyous day may be, but I believe I'm on solid ground.
I understand about ATF and CADOJ getting a bit upset about all the CNC 'build parties' that were happening a few years ago, where you just show up, slap your 80% AR into the vise, and hit the button, but this isn't that. What I remember from that at the time was that you couldn't just hit the button, you had to write your own program, load your own tools, etc., before they called it 'your' build. Which is exactly what I'm doing, myself. Once. Actually doing it on the manual mill, quicker than fussing with the CNC, for one.
You may be right, so I'll double check. Don't think so, but it's worth checking. The first rule of California gun laws is that if you think you understand them, or if something makes sense, clearly you missed something.

-Brian

Alberic said:

My understanding of the 'manufacturing' part is that you only need a class 7 if you're planning on selling them.
...
You may be right, so I'll double check. Don't think so, but it's worth checking.

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I think it would be best if you check again. Specifically you might want to check Penal Code 32000.

Here's a link to the California Penal Code for your convenience: CA Codes (pen:32000-32030)

This has nothing to do with sales, but if you plan to transfer a firearm which you have manufactured for personal use, at a LATER date, you need to make sure it's properly serialized per the BATFE so that you can do that, or add it later if not. Otherwise you can't transfer it. You can only transfer a firearm (sale or otherwise) through an FFL 01, with a couple exceptions such as inheritance.

Alberic said:

The first rule of California gun laws is that if you think you understand them, or if something makes sense, clearly you missed something.

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That rule applies to your situation. You have some "My understanding...", "I believe...", etc...clauses in your post. Those won't hold up in court.

I'm not trying to scare you, but you clearly haven't researched the California gun laws enough to understand what you can or can't do or you would be agreeing with me.

The provisions provided by the Gun Control Act of 1968 are separate from the California gun laws. You still need to abide to the California Penal Code, legally.

Back on track, there isn't enough demand for 1911 final cutter kits when the 100% ones are pennies on the dollar. Trust me, I know this as we build custom precision / tactical rifles. The only handguns we build are 1911's. The market isn't there in the long run as the cnc guys can out produce your friend 6 ways to sunday. If you are trying to keep you buddy in business, might be better suited drumming up "shop" work, meaning odd jobs but it pays the bills. The fame and fortune of building custom guns or selling tooling for them is very fleeting.

Since Brownells has all but a few of the cutters, why don't you make those and offer them to Brownells to complete their catalog of 1911 tooling?

Rex TX said:

Since Brownells has all but a few of the cutters, why don't you make those and offer them to Brownells to complete their catalog of 1911 tooling?

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Excellent idea

Bit Size Spec Location
5/16 .3125 .3130 mag hole
#7 .2010 .2010 + .0020 ss cross pin
#35 .1100 .1100 + .0020 sear pin
#22 .1570 .1575 + .0015 hammer pin
4mm .1575 .1575 + .0015 hammer pin
#23 .1540 .1558 + .0015 thumb safety pin
#22 .1570 .1570 + .0020 mainsping housing pin
#19 .1660 .1640 + .0030 disconnector port

3mm .1181 .1180 3mm woodruf cutter for frame slot
3/32 .0938 .1000 303 woodruf cutter for slide slot
18mm .7087 ball end mill for barrel bed

There are a lot of various sizes, but most all of them are workable with standard tooling.