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9mm 1911?

armen

Aluminum
Joined
Oct 10, 2004
Location
Northern New Jersey
I'm toying with the idea of building a 1911 style gun in 9mm. Seems the frame/slides are out there. Saw an article on one (Nighthawk) that used a smaller/slimmer frame than the standard .45 ACP ones. Any experiences? Any issues with the differences between the 9mm and 45 in terms of the mechanicals besides the obvious differences in barrel and magazine?
Not asking for anyone's permission, just feedback.
thanks,
-Armen
 
Armen

I'm not really sure what you are asking? The 1911 has always been made in 38 Super. Well, for as long as the Super has been around anyway. To convert, all you need to do is replace the appropriate parts.

Ray
 
Feeding a 9mm 1911 can be an issue unless you get into barrels with a built in feed ramp. Caspian makes a frame with the correct feed ramp angle for a 9mm. I opt for the Wilson/Nowlin cut myself, you can modify a .45 frame to this shape.
 
Why not make a Luger in 45 ACP. I think one of the originals are worth its weight in gold! I think there is only one known to exist of the 10 or so made. Gary P. Hansen
 
The Colt Government Model both in standard length and the shortened Commander model have been marketed by Colt in 9mm Luger. I think the parts which vary from the .45 model are the extractor, barrel, magazine, and possibly the ejector. I handled an example of the Commander model around 1970.

Gary,

There are three original .45 Lugers that have been known to exist, others have been speculated about and otherwise reported, but not substantiated. Number 1 was used in the U.S. Army tests in 1907. Number 2 was the backup gun for those tests and was once in the Sidney Aberman collection. Number 1 is believed to have been discarded after the testing.

A previously unknown to exist.45 caliber Luger Carbine (with a serial number of 21) surfaced a couple of years ago and is presently in the Ralph E. Shattuck collection. Information which documents the authenticity of this particular firearm as a genuine product of DWM has not yet been made public, and has been the source of much additional controversy among collectors. To see photographs of this unique .45 caliber carbine, please visit Ralph Shattuck's website Http://www.worldoflugers.com

Mike Krause also makes modern reproductions of the original .45 caliber Luger using CNC technology. The sell in the neighborhood of $15K per copy. I personally know one of the owners of these guns.

More information and photos can be seen at Lugerforum.com in the General Information pages. I have been a moderator there for 10 years.

The last time an original .45 Luger was sold, it was valued at over $1,000,000 dollars. There is one in a museum in Robert Norton Gallery in Shreeveport LA, believed to be the #2 gun.
 
Different slide (breachface is narrower), frame, firing pin, barrel, ejector, extractor, recoil spring, mainspring, magazine.

Springfield markets the EMP, it is scaled down.

9mm 1911s can tend to be very fussy as to ammo and mags-the pressure curve of 9mm is totally different than 45ACP as a result the timing of various portions of the operation cycle need to be addressed- feeding, chambering, extraction and ejection, not to mention barrel and magazine timing issues.

, no need for a ramped barrel- the round sits higher in the magazine and feeds almost straight into the chamber- the issue is the 9mm is too short for the 1911 platform, which was designed for longer cartridges similar to 45ACP, 10mm, 9x23 and 38 Super.

The frame has a different cut for the ramp- shallower than a 45ACP (not reversible without an insert or welding) though a ramp barrel cut can clean a 45 ramp out.

I'd suggest hand selecting your slide for correct breachface dimensions and location, this will save you a lot of headaches down the road, as will using an AFTEC extractor and the "Springfield" magazines made by Metalform- they have a spacer that helps a lot with feeding.
 
I have built a number of 1911 guns in 9mm.
I have used Springfield , caspian, Les Baer and STI parts.
Never had a problem, I have used both full ramped barrel and unramped, and they work great.
BUT avoid those uggly stupid bull barrels as they are far to heavy, and also avoid 6" slides.
img48b115b3510a5.jpg

Technika
 
I also have a Springfield Armory 1911 factory chambered in 9mm, also for shooting steel. I guess the moral of the story is 1911's can be had in nearly any flavor you want.

Jeff
 
357 sig is a great round for a commander length. You will need to re chamber a 9 mm barrel pick up a 40 cal or 38 super slide and some 40 cal mags. Round has enough umph to work the gun just fine.
 
Hi There,

Some of the Star pistols were of the 1911 design in 9mm and used
a slimmer frame/slide configuration than the Colt. I particularly like
the Star Super which uses a "kidney Bean" hole in the barrel lug
instead of the swinging link and has the neatest take-down lever
system on the side of the frame.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb
 
can someone explain to me the differences in the mechanism between the 1911 colt and the browning hi-power? I have been trying to find out a bit more about these two, but have never found a good side by side comparison. From what I have read, at first that the hi-power was a work-around because JMB had already sold the important patents to colt's, but by the time it was finished by FN, those patents had expired, and they incorporated much of the design into the final Hi-Power design.

Why build a 9mm model 1911 when you already have the hi-power? is it the fatter grip on the hi-power which makes a 9mm 1911 a desirable option?

-jon
 
The HiPower is a very reliable pistol, which is simpler in design, has less parts and is easier to manufacture correctly than the 1911.

There is no grip safety on the Hipower, but there is a magazine disconect.

Both are single action only and can be carried "cocked and locked", both are recoil operated with the barrel locking into recessed lugs in the slide.

The 1911 has a simpler lockwork, and a trigger which moves straight back acting directly on the sear by way of the disconnector.

On the Browning, the trigger pivots, and indirectly engages a connector in the slide which then releases the sear. AS a result of the linkage, the Hipowers trigger pull is heavier and has more takeup and overtravel than a 1911.

The lack of a trigger bow as found on the 1911 is what enables a high capacity, double column magazine with a slim and comfortable gripframe.

The Hi Power barrel lockup replaces the swinging link of the 1911 bottom lugs with a simpler, cammed sytem machined on the bottom of the barrel.

Later model Hi Powers have a spring loaded extractor in contrast to the early pistols which had a 1911 style "leaf spring" extractor.

Hi Power barrels have an integral feedramp as opposed to the 2 part ramp of the 1911, and the Hipower barrel muzzle locks up directly into the slide (no removable barrel bushing as on a 1911).

IMO, it's pretty tough to beat the clean sear release and short trigger pull of a 1911 and a 9mm Government model or Commander is a very soft shooting, sweet pistol. Though I like the HiPower and shoot it well, nothing fits my hand as well as a tuned 1911.
 
thanks for the info.

looks like someone needs to make a gun that combines the best of both of these, or has it already been done?

I don't know if it is purely the aesthetics, or how they feel in my hand, but I like both of these guns better than just about anything else that I have ever held. Sadly haven't had a chance to fire either one, but maybe I can change that soon. :)

-jon
 
I do not agree here, not at all......

First the Hipower was a design of Didienne Saive and not JMB.
JMBs design looks very different from the Highpower and the HP was developed to what is was after 1926...........
Next thing is that the HP sucks, it's really a terrible pistol that is really good looking with great history, but still a terrible pistol.
Triggerpull is shit, hammerbite is severe, trigger action is everything else than smart.

The 1911 is far better.

That said I held Glock higher than the 1911 from serious non target work.

Technika
 
Mr Technika, you are entitled to your opinion, but I respectfully disagree with you.

To be sure, the P35 has a lot of Browning's influence in it- notably the barrel lock up, the extractor, the double column magazine and trigger system. The hammer and sear interface are obviously lifted right out of Browning's 1911 as are the location of the various controls.

Saive was Browning's protege, no doubt he was a great designer and had a huge influence on the P35 and is overlooked and undercredited. Not hard to image FN felt the P35 would sell better with Browning's name recognition on it vs Saive's- who was relatively unknown. Saive went on to design the excellent FAL rifle among other things...

"Sucks" and "terrible" are pretty harsh words applied to a pistol that fits the hand well, is inherently reliable and durable, and was widely adopted and deployed by many armies and police forces worldwide. Trigger pull and hammer bite are easily corrected. Evidently the elite British SAS and FBI HRT disagreed with you about the P35's utility...

Re the Glock vs 1911- without a doubt the Glock is a good pistol, but most professional gun handlers in the US would disagree with your opinion about the Glock vs 1911. Many elite military and LE units issue the 1911 and many individuals who are issued Glocks, buy 1911s for on and off duty use with money from their own pockets...

FWIW the 1911 is my favorite pistol and I prefer the "single action only" version of the CZ75 over the P35.
Cheers,
Steve

"A 9mm may expand, but a 45 never contracts..."
 
Already before 1920 when France asked for a duoble column Magazined pistol, Mr Browning was asked to make a conversion of the 1903 to duoble column.
He refused to to it, saying the whole thing was stupid.

Mr. Saive did then withoth Brownings knowledge convert a 1903 to duolbe column to show it was possible. The gun was reported to funktion without disturbances and was Showed to Mr. Browning.
The story tells that he never did discuss the whole thing again and from now on the project was on a staggered column magazine...................

So I respectfully disagree with you when it comes to the mag.
And of course there is a number of things that are JMB on the HP Pistol, but there is also a number that is not.
Remember that the HP was released on the marked in 1935, nine years after the death of JMB.

Saive was a great constructer, and the MAG58 is probably his best solution.
In my opinion was the HP one of the worst.

The use of a modern 1911 today in todays military/police use, is all about fashion, and in my opinion a heavy overbelif for the caliber. I don't belive ever a 1911 regardless who made it will win a endurance test over a Glock.
There is very few that uses 1911 based pistols outside of the US for serous work. I only know one and that is in Denmark (STI) and they have loads of problems.........

Another problem with 1911's is the fact that noone is making decent parts with decent tolerances from the beginning, and regardless whos parts you are buying you need plenty of time to make a pistol out from it.
And then if we take anything standard out of box lika Springfield, Colt, Kimber, STI , SVI or whatever it's unlikely that it will work decently and have a decent triggerpull before a 1911 competent gunsmith have spent a number of hours in it.


Technika
PS. I love 1911 pistols and have spent serious time with them.
But I love Lugers as well and don't see them as modern military pistols eiter....
 
Back about 1982 G&A magazine did an article on a 5 in 1 pistol. I can't remember all details (26 years ago!) but there was something about using a 9mm commander slide on a Govt frame (or was it the other way around?).

Anyway! they had one frame working with .45, .38 super, .38/.45, 9mmP and .22LR slide barrel and mag (oops and spring!) combinations.

I know the rim diameter is slightly different, but i think the .38 super slide was working with 9mm barrel?

Do you know of anyone with a collection of the old G&A magazines? the cover had a photo of the gun with hideous white grips and the G&A RKBA emblem on them.

As to .45 Luger, there was a G&A annual from about '81 or '82 with an article about a luger converted to .38 super. If anyone finds it, I would like to see it (didn't get to see it at the time).

On the Hi power debate, take a look at my post on Browning patents a few months back. most of the features are Browning patented, although he died too soon to put them all into a fully de-bugged pistol.
Keith
 
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