Basket Case: A Neat Machine Resurrected

The "Basket Case Thread" convinced me to post photos of a basket case I ran across 2 years ago. It was outside a old barn, partially under a blue tarp, in gross disuse. It followed me home and received a liquid overhaul (sandblast, steam clean, painting) along with new spindle bearings and a total rewiring/control replacement.

It is a NorthStar Master Carver Gunstock Duplicator. Carves up to 72 inches long. A big beast, weighs around 1800 pounds.

This machine has some unique features not found on other stock duplicators, look very close and maybe you can figure out what the features are.

PS, This is a backyard hobby machine to give me something to do in retirement. I do not make stocks for others or for sale, life is getting too short for such foolishness!

Below photo shows the duplicator with pattern stocks set up on the centers, just for illustration purposes.





And below I am carving a pattern, with changes, from an existing pattern. One of the neat uses for a duplicator is making patterns from existing patterns, I do this when I need to change stock dimensions such as drop, pitch, cast off, pistol grip length, etc.

Nice machine and good work restoring it.

I will post a few photos later, showing details.

I see some of the changes

I can see the change over to linear bearing for the carriage. Show more of the machine headstock end. I had to assemble a new North Star from the factory in 1964. Later I bought my own machine.

I will post more on why I built my own stock duplicator. The difference is simple to explain with a few pictures.

Glad you found a good machine for yourself probably at a good price also.

Les Brooks

LBrooks said:

I can see the change over to linear bearing for the carriage. Show more of the machine headstock end. I had to assemble a new North Star from the factory in 1964. Later I bought my own machine.

I will post more on why I built my own stock duplicator. The difference is simple to explain with a few pictures.

Glad you found a good machine for yourself probably at a good price also.

Les Brooks

Click to expand...

You and I think alike. I had planned on building a machine myself. Looked at all available and considered the best features, then designed one for myself. Started collecting all the materials and parts. Was just about to commite the time involved to start the construction when I ran across this NorthStar. You are correct, the price was right, and I could not resist! Had to take it completly apart to get it in my F250.

Got it to the farm after a 20 hour round trip. Took about a month for the clean up, painting and rebuilding.

I have ran 11 stocks across the machine, it works very well, is accurate and has lots of power.

Some features: A reverse mechanism for the third stock position, allowing carving a left hand stock from a right hand pattern, or vice versa, or any combination, such as putting a left hand cheekpiece on a stock with a right hand bolt. The two powered spindles have reversible motors, allowing the use of right hand or left hand cuttes, sometimes an importance choice due to grain flow in the blank. I like the aft motors, gives a lot of visibility to the stylus and cutters. Linear bearings are a must, the wheel and cable types are prone to "cocking" and have more carriage drag.

Note the wide center spacing for the blanks, this is needed when one blank is ran in reverse rotation, otherwise the toe of the banks will interfere.

Running one blank in reverse requires the reverse cams for the right hand cutter position, and a reverse gear on the rotation mechanism for turning the blank.

I still plan on building the duplicator I designed, just for fun. It will have a large DC motor for power, a nice feature to be able to control cutter speed.

The NorthStar does not have a true vertical plunge for the cutter and stylus, the often mentioned "Fifth Axis" of the Hoenig and Allen, but with the long arms for the stylus and cutters on the NorthStar, it is not really needed. The fifth axis is nice for the tight inlets on the magazine box, or the complicated inlets on a double rifle or shotgun, but in reality extra wood is left in these areas to allow a final hand fitting.

I will take some photos this weekend of the powered end and the reverse cams and post.

LBrooks said:

I can see the change over to linear bearing for the carriage. Show more of the machine headstock end. I had to assemble a new North Star from the factory in 1964. Later I bought my own machine.

I will post more on why I built my own stock duplicator. The difference is simple to explain with a few pictures.

Glad you found a good machine for yourself probably at a good price also.

Les Brooks

Click to expand...

I would love to see photos of your machine.

Duplicators are elusive animals. Those that own one seem reluctant to post photos, or are not active on these time wasting gunsmith forums, likely due to the fact that they have to make money with their expensive duplicator.

When I first considered duplicators many years ago, I could not figure out what the wheels and cables were for, having never seen a duplicator in real life and the photos avalable usually showed the carving spindles and little else. Then I found one in a non-gunsmithing shop and had a chance to run it. Opened my eyes!

Of course the now common use of digital cameras and the ease of posting photos has changed things a great bit.

Duplicator simplified

I used the North Star for awhile and sold it to build my own. I wanted a machine that was portable and didn't need a ton of weight to hold parts. You mentioned how heavy the old machine was in your truck. I moved mine in a Ford van and I thought that the tires were going to blow out.

My machine is about 135 lbs total weight. It was designed to be portable and small enough to store. You need only 4 square ft of floor to store my design. It is 2 ft by 4 ft and stores on its end against a wall. The North Star needed a room 8 ft by 10 ft or 80 sq. ft to store and operate. I could move my design out to use and then place it back out of the way. I used the cables and wheels like the original North Stars. They will keep the carriage inline without giving if kept tight. No moving parts in the carriage with the router motor and the guide stylist in a fixed position. I used hard maple in the frame after seeing old machines made with wood frames. I lined the wood work areas like where the wheels roll with steel runners. I started working on my first machine in 1981. By 1983 it was running and cutting stocks very good. I tried to cut about .020 undersize on the inletting and over size about .040 on the outside and then inlett by hand and file the outside to the finish size. It worked well in a shop where you could only make a few stocks a year. You couldn't make a plunge cut, but could do a slight radius down cut. The problem with several other designs is that it takes both hands to control the carriage. I solved that problem by making a quick release lock for the carriage. When doing inside routing the lock is not used. Both hands are used to keep control at this point.

I didn't do stock routing for the public, but told them to send it out to people in the duplicating business. When I made a custom gun for a customer it was all my work. I never took in jobs to checkering only. We didn't have time to offer this service because we had so much work. I will post pictures in another post tonight.

LBrooks said:

I can see the change over to linear bearing for the carriage. Show more of the machine headstock end. I had to assemble a new North Star from the factory in 1964. Later I bought my own machine.

I will post more on why I built my own stock duplicator. The difference is simple to explain with a few pictures.

Glad you found a good machine for yourself probably at a good price also.

Les Brooks

Click to expand...

PLEASE do a comprehensive writeup. I plan to build my own machine, too, after looking at the $$$ for the professional machines and the crude tinker toy setups intended for home workshops as I have.

I am interested in why you built your machine a certain way and not another way, what your machine can't do, and what it can compared to others.

Thanks!

My Duplicator design



Hope this will work

more pictures

I will add a few more shots so you can see what it looks like. Can be made for less than $1000 and will cut as well as the other machines. It will cut 95% in about 1 hr. This small machine has been made available to people wanting to make their own. I was offer 2% royality by a company to make the machine, but they wouldn't give anything for my time in working out the design. I told them I would give it away so people could make their own if that was all they would pay. So here it is!!!




The bottom picture is all metal frame which the students at TSJC built when I was teaching stockmaking. They made my design and got paid by the school for the work. It was still being used a couple of years ago.

Les: Very nice job on the duplicator. And you are right about the weight and size of the NorthStar machines: I cannot move mine unless I take it completley apart. There is a small monorail over the machine, left over from the time I assembled the carriage on the base.

My machine is very large, takes up a lot of shop space and is not the machine for the stockmaker with limited room, or having a need to move the machine often.

I like your use of a router motor, looks like you may have preceeded Allen and Green on their use.

For those that have not seen the stockmaking thread posted by Les over on the Accurate Reloading forum, it is a "Must See". Go to accuratereloading.com, then to the forums, then enter the Gunsmithing forum and read the postings by Les on how to make a stock with basic hand tools. It is the first post, "Stockmaker Show and Tell". Well worth your time to read!

Rifle cut in the above post




This is the rifle that I was routing out in the picture in the above post. My machine is offered on the USB drive so someone can built their own little machine. I pass along ideas that I have so others can learn like some of us old folks worked.

Don't look too close at the engraving on the bottom post. I only engrave for my self and this is a rifle going to my grandson.




A stock duplicator can save time, but it is up to the craftsman to make it into a fine rifle. You must have a good knowledge of stockmaking inorder to make your patterns.

LBrooks said:

A stock duplicator can save time, but it is up to the craftsman to make it into a fine rifle. You must have a good knowledge of stockmaking inorder to make your patterns.

Click to expand...

This is for sure, the real work on a duplicator is making patterns. Once you have a pattern to the right specs carving the stock is just time.

PS, you have a very fortunate grandson!

Post pictures of North Star

Silverrado,

I would like to see the other end of your machine when you have time. Did this machine come with linear bearings or was it the wheel and cable model?

I never did use the one I owned to cut two stocks or reverse the cheek piece. I didn't have time to offer duplication services. Back 40 yrs ago that was about the only one a small shop could buy. A friend who was a machinist and for some reason liked to talk with me in the mid '60's on stocks. We discussed making a duplicator using the linear bearing, but didn't go forward in make the machine. Later others made those now popular duplicators. I don't know who made the first one. I have worked with the Don Allen machine and could see a way to control the router from taking two hands to control. My idea was to KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID method.

Les Brooks

LBrooks said:

Silverrado,

I would like to see the other end of your machine when you have time. Did this machine come with linear bearings or was it the wheel and cable model?

I never did use the one I owned to cut two stocks or reverse the cheek piece. I didn't have time to offer duplication services. Back 40 yrs ago that was about the only one a small shop could buy. A friend who was a machinist and for some reason liked to talk with me in the mid '60's on stocks. We discussed making a duplicator using the linear bearing, but didn't go forward in make the machine. Later others made those now popular duplicators. I don't know who made the first one. I have worked with the Don Allen machine and could see a way to control the router from taking two hands to control. My idea was to KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID method.

Les Brooks

Click to expand...

KISS is my theory also.

My NorthStar came as shown with the linear bearings. NorthStar today has no knowledge of this type machine and does not make it anymore, just the wheel and cable types. (The original Northstar Co. was sold several years ago to the current owner, so this may be the reason, a lot of stuff is lost when a Company is purchased by others).

Greene, Allen and Hoenig all use the linears, my hunch is Hoenig was first. I would love to see some history on duplicators, this type of information is very difficult to find! Who knows, maybe the NorthStar like mine was the first with linear bearings!

I will take some photos today and get them up.

Northstars are mainly used in the furniture industry, with up to 20 carving positions. Probably takes a Sasquatch to run one though.

Reversing setup is a pain on a two position machine, you have to take the rotation mechanism apart and change the worm and worm gear, plus hook up the reverse cams for the cutter arm and align everything. This is why I leave the third position set up in reverse on my machine, this is about the only advantage I see in having a three position machine like mine. Carving two stocks from one pattern takes more muscle anyway, don't think I will ever try it.

Like you I do not carve stocks for others. Just too much work, why spoil a hobby by catering to someone else's timeline and low pay? When I visit the sites of gents with duplicators and read their pricing, I am taken back. I would never carve a stock for $200 if I were in the business.

North Star and Terrco "Spindle Moulders" or "Stock Pantographs"

These "stock Copiers" fall in the class of Woodworking machines known as "Spindle Moulders" and can make a lot of other furniture parts besides Gunstocks.

I have a Terrco, it is virtually an improvement of the North Star..Mine is a Four cutter model, two cutters rotate to the right, two to the left, and a single massive electric motor driving a continuous belt drive. Same linear wire controlled bearings, same master rotation screw, and a more complicated pantograph, with counterweights.

72 inches capacity, and will do complete Military Long rifle stocks-- WW I Mauser, Japanese Arisaka, etc, as well as all the standard (shorter) WW II military stocks. We use it for making "Movie Gun" stocks and replacement stocks for Re-enactors who don't want to ruin a good original stock running and diving in the rocky or muddy re-enactment grounds.

Can also do "flat" machining, for Gun grips, bayonet grips, etc. Just set the masters and feed stock on a sheet of Heavy Ply under the cutters.

The force required to do 4 stocks at once is quite substantial, and I usually only do two, Left and Right cut, so the torque evens out. On try-outs for a new stock design, I do only one, until I have the hang of it.

Great machines...Terrco offers a model that can do 10 stocks at a time....you have to be a Yeti to work it....and about as smart...

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics Film Ordnance Services
Brisbane Australia.

"Great machines...Terrco offers a model that can do 10 stocks at a time....you have to be a Yeti to work it....and about as smart..."

Agreed!!!

I have more photos to post, but am having difficulty accessing my website server, so it will be a while.

Terrco is the present owner of Northstar, I have corresponded with them many times. Most machines are used in the furniture industry.

We have another duplicator in our group, it is in storage and not being used at this time. It is a 5 position machine and is just about impossible for me to operate if all postions are carving.

DocAV, if you are having difficulty obtaining the original Forrest City cutters, I have all the information. When carving two stocks, it is best to run one carving spindle in reverse and use a different rotation cutter: I have left hand and right hand cutters for my machine. I installed reversing switches on the motors, just reverse the spindle by flicking a switch.

Hi everyone!
I've lurked around this website off an on for a while now and finally felt compelled to join up when I saw this post.
I'm not a machinist (just a woodworker) but am fascinanted by metal working and plan on someday learning how to do it all. I do take an interest in old machinery and have restored a few of my own. The cool thing is that I actually live literally 3 minutes from the Northfield Woodworking machinery building and visit often! The machines they have there are mind boggling!

I've been hoping to stumble across one of these northstar carvers for a while now. There was one at a local machinery dealer here in Minnesota for a while but alas it was out of my price range.
I'd love to find a 20-1 or 20-2 carver, but in the meantime just like a lot of you fellas I've been drafting my own plans to build one.
Les, if you don't mind I'll send you a PM as I'd love to see the plans for your machine if you are still willing to share.
I'm a little confused about how the wheel and cable system works for the carriage. Well...I get the wheel but the cable is what I"m unclear on. I think I get how it works but could use some clarification.

Anyway, I'm happy to be apart of this community now and hopefully someday I'll be able to contribute something of knowledge and not JUST be asking questions all the time!
Cheers!

Cable and drum/wheel machine:

Has a common axle, with a drum and a wheel on each side.

Wheel runs on a track, two tracks, two wheels, left and right.

Drum is attached to the axle, or to the wheel. Cable is wound around each drum, one left, one right of carriage.

Ends of cables are attached to the rail, or to the rail support. One cable end runs to the front of the machine, one cable end runs to the rear. Same on both sides.

Friction of a couple of wraps of the cable around the drum keeps the carriage from skewing as the carriage is moved fore and aft.

The linear bearing machine does not need cables or wheels/drums, as the linear bearing rod keeps the carriage tracking straight.

Look closely at the photos of Les Brooks machine. He uses a common wheel/drum on each side. A wheel runs on the top of the beam with a piece of what looks like angle iron (might be aluminum) as a guide and the cable is wrapped around the drum, outboard of the guide. The cable is small diameter and hard to see. His machine is a very good solution to the high priced duplicators and has a lot of design thought put into it to reduce the number of parts required. Les did a very good job in my mind's eye!


I have some photos of another cable machine, will try to find them and post a few, it is made a little different.

A duplicator is a easy machine to make if you use a router motor. The type I have is a little more complicated due to the arangement of the drive motor on the rear of the arm and the belt driven spindle on the front.

Wheels and cables

I designed mine to operate off the right wheel for the controlling of the carriage. The cable is mounted through a couple of holes and then wrapped around with one extra wrap of cable and attached to the end with the adjustment bolts. The wheel rides on a 1/8 inch steel rail on the frame to keep the carriage on the machine. The angle irons are for keeping away some of the chips when cutting. The left wheel doesn't have the groove to ride on, but just move on the flat steel. The left wheel will not bind up when moving the carriage as all is controlled from the right side. There is no slipping of the cables as they pass through the holes and from the bottom side of the wheel to the end of the frame where each end has an adjustment bolt to move the carriage to square it to the frame.

Left side wheel



The tension on the cables has to be tuned to the same pitch by ear and be rather tight. I have not had any problem with this system.