A bit O/T - need advice on a pistol for the wife

My wife has become interested in shooting more and would like to work towards a concealed carry permit. She just joined up with the group "The Well Armed Woman" and they meet out at a local range once a month to shoot.

Now, for concealed carry, I have a Ruger LCP that she can shoot. I had her out on the range with it and while she can handle it, it is not very comfortable to shoot. Light weight, short barrel equals a lot of flash-bang and more recoil than one would expect from the diminutive .380 round. So I went to "Plan B" and got out a brand new Ruger Mark I in .22 LR that I've had for a number of years but never shot much. She really likes the feel of the gun. The weight is no problem and the recoil/flash is non-existent. While we were out on the range there were a few jams and feed failures but nothing major. I took a better look at it when we got home and found that some of the original oil/grease had the consistency of gum. I dis-assembled and cleaned the gun thoroughly put a light coat of oil on the works. I was confident that the pistol would perform well even though I didn't have a chance to test fire it. What could go wrong?

Her first night with the women's group at the range was a complete disaster. The Mark I had all kinds of feed and extraction issues, to the point she gave up and came home early. The bolt would "lock up" in the forward position and require serious force to pull it back and expel the fired/un-fired round as the case may be. What made the whole situation worse for her was the condescension heaped up on the gun and the round by the guys running the range. Then there was, what I consider to be, the bad advice, "You have to just slather the oil on those guns to get them to work.", etc. Needless to say, my wife's confidence is a bit shaken.

I can re-work the Mark I, even though I'm not sure where the problem is as of yet, but getting to the range to test is out is a bit of a p.i.t.a. (Suggestions would be welcome.)

Now, to try and help repair my wife's confidence, I'm considering the purchase of another pistol so she can "hold her head up" at the range basically (their attitudes piss me off btw). What I am looking for is suggestions as to which center-fire pistol would be worth considering. She likes the size/feel of the Mark I but is open to any gun. I would like to still have minimal recoil/flash until she is much more confident around it though.

Suggestions?

Thanks much,

-Ron

I have a Ruger MK1 that I got in the 70's. It has digested many 1000's of rounds with fewer malfunctions that I can count on one hand. If your gun worked better gummed up than clean, almost certainly something just did not go together right. The usual problem with assembly is the hammer strut out of place, the trick is to aim the gun down and let the hammer fall forward by gravity releasing the trigger then aim up to swing the strut into position to fall into position in the pocket in the hammer spring plunger when you swing it in to latch it. All that being said one usually won't even function when that's out of place. As I think you have surmised they don't need to be slathered with oil. As for what to recommend for your wife I'd suggest going to a well stocked gun store and just let her handle a bunch of guns to see what fits her hand. Make sure she can rack the slide and manipulate the slide release, safety and mag release with ease. Don't forget about revolvers too, you can't beat a revolver for simplicity. BTW if you reassemble the MK1 again I bet it will work great with out working on it.

most of the modern automatics....work out of the box with little or no finesse. for concealed carry I recomend a decocking lever model... carry it locked, loaded, decocked so its double action first shot, single action after that.. but the golden rule,,, she needs to decide it in the end. Revolvers are good for simplicity and 'always working". If its a group maybe they have a shoot around and let her get a feel what she likes.

Try using different ammo in the Mark 1 if you're using lead use a FMJ ammo,also if your wife is absorbing the recoil with her arm that will cause problems with the weak 22 ammo,not enough power to cycle the rounds.

The Ruger SR22 is a nice little light weight 22-17oz and seems to have no trouble with any of the cheaper ammo but the 22 is not much for stopping power,around here 22 shells are sold out everywhere and have been for over a year? plus some places have a 3 box maximum?

When I was looking for a carry pistol, I had narrowed it down to the Ruger LCP and LC9, the Beretta Storm, a Walther PPS, and a Sig Sauer that I can't remember the name of. There are so many good pistols available now that your best bet is really to find the one it a caliber you can stand that best fits your hand. Rugers, especially in 22LR, have been amazing guns for as long as I have known them. That said, all 22 pistols that I am aware of are temperamental to bullet choice, and that is just something you have to deal with. My 22LR High Standard revolver hates Federals, and my Bersa will not cycle Wildcats. Also, you really do need different pistols for range use and conceal and carry. You shoot your carry gun to be confident with it, you shoot your range gun to have fun.

My wife, who is a moderately active shooter, minimally interested in handguns, loves her Ruger LCR and S&W M&P9c (which was kidnapped from me in similar fashion to thermites Walther)

I can't really suggest a particular gun, but I will suggest 9mm: Less expensive to shoot than any other "serious" defensive caliber, mild recoil, wide variety of guns available. Ability to conceal the gun is always going to be contrary to a gun that's easy to shoot. The smaller they get, the easier they conceal, and the smaller they get the harder they are to control. The subcompact market has exploded with the excellent progress concealed carry has made over the years, but that doesn't make them the best choice.

For an all around gun that is concealable, easy to shoot, practical, inexpensive, simple, it's really hard to beat a Glock 19. If that seems too big to consider for concealment, or she doesn't particularly like how it fits in her hand, then a S&W M&P 9, either full size or compact is only a smidge bigger or smidge smaller.

Smith and Wesson shield in 9mm. Start and practice with the M&P 22. For a defensive pistol it HAS to be SIMPLE. Draw and fire.
It HAS to be practiced.

Also does she have the mental gumption to actually plug another human if need be? Carrying a gun with no mindset prep is the same as carrying a guitar and thinking you can play with the best of them.

Small and simple works for my daughter - Glock 19 for the car & house- no controls, levers, buttons, just point and click.
Carry is the tiny S&W 340PD, loaded with .38. Again, very simple.

My dad had a Ruger .22 that he traded because he had a lot of trouble with it jamming. Turns out, he was trying to shoot .22 longs instead of long rifles. Probably too simple to really bring up, but it does happen.

I also owned a Ruger .22 target model that I had shot many rounds through and never once had a malfunction; found it to be very well made and reliable. Chances are it is an issue with the ammunition.

+1 on trying out a lot of guns. Comfort is important for carry. Although a .45 probably has the best stopping power, not everyone is going to feel comfortable lugging something like that around...... and when it gets left home is when it will be needed.

I bought my wife a Ruger SR-22, and a Riger 10-22 that I put in a bullpup stock. She can shoot the shit out of both. I would involve her in the decision, as I almost bought my wife a M&P 22 and she hated the feel of it.

SW feather weight alum and SS frame. Loaded with .38 Plus P wadcutters. Yes I know wadcutters? Stats indicate more damage in a low velocity round (short barrel) than a JHP. I like the gun myself, easy to carry all day & night, you never even know your wearing it. For me, wheel guns mean no failures in a L/D.

Take the Mrs. to a well stocked gun range. We have a few around here that you can "rent" a gun from. You rent the gun, buy the ammo and have some fun. I rented a 9mm Springfield XD and ended up buying one.....I loved it. Nothing like "test driving" before buying.......on another note....when I took my concealed carry class, my instructor told me that it is a good idea to run through your test with a caliber that you plan to carry. If you test with a .22 then end up using a .45 to shoot someone the very first thing that an opposing lawyer will do is claim that you were unfamiliar with the gun you used because you tested on a .22 but then carried a .45. And that is evidence of some sort of "Dirty Harry" complex. Not saying that is extremely important, but it would be one more piece against you.....I never figured to carry a 9mm.......but similar to what others have said....a 9mm fits MY hand well, and I can put 8 out of 10 rounds right where I want to. Admittedly, nowhere near the stopping power of a .357......but 3 .357 rounds into a wall doesn't stop the intended target....but may stop an unintended target.

Many .22 semi autos work much better with high velocity ammo as opposed to the sub sonic stuff. Look at the .32 Magnum for a carry gun.

Bob
WB8NQW

Normally Mk 1's and 2's are built tank tough. They can like all 22's be fussy with ammo. Check the mag feed lips for excessive scratching or if they've been bent. After that the tail on the captive spring holder can get dinged during reassembly and do strange things.

Next and most important is, if it's going to be her gun, she better start cleaning it and taking care of it. If she has to depend on you to do it she's only half a shooter and as a consequence half as knowledgeable as she needs to be.

Take a look at the GSG 1911's, MP 22, Sig Mosquito and P226 Classic 22. All great guns in and of themselves with the bonus that they mimic full size defensive pistols. ( The ISSC Glock clone has had some sketchy reviews and it's not a quite exact copy from what I hear ).

For self defense she really needs to experiment with what works for her in terms of grip size, angle, weight, and what type of carry she thinks will suit her best; hip, purse, sob. Rental range with a well stocked cabinet is the best option. Otherwise bringing coffee and cakes on ladies night is a great way to get people to lend you their gun so you can test the feel.

Last but not least, kick the RO's in the ass and tell them to smarten da fu** up. That kind of stupidity is a plague on us all and does no help but alot of harm. If she's going to carry for self defense then she's going to need to shoot often to stay in tune. Make sure the range is a place that she enjoys and wants to go to, not some where she avoid.

gl

Figured there'd be a few opinions out there... Can't rightly respond to each though so I will try to clear up some points using a few selected quotes.

Shimitup said:

I have a Ruger MK1 that I got in the 70's. It has digested many 1000's of rounds with fewer malfunctions that I can count on one hand. If your gun worked better gummed up than clean, almost certainly something just did not go together right. The usual problem with assembly is the hammer strut out of place, the trick is to aim the gun down and let the hammer fall forward by gravity releasing the trigger then aim up to swing the strut into position to fall into position in the pocket in the hammer spring plunger when you swing it in to latch it. All that being said one usually won't even function when that's out of place. As I think you have surmised they don't need to be slathered with oil. As for what to recommend for your wife I'd suggest going to a well stocked gun store and just let her handle a bunch of guns to see what fits her hand. Make sure she can rack the slide and manipulate the slide release, safety and mag release with ease. Don't forget about revolvers too, you can't beat a revolver for simplicity. BTW if you reassemble the MK1 again I bet it will work great with out working on it.

Click to expand...

Gun was re-assembled properly, really only one way to put it back together and still have it work. It didn't work very well though. Cleaning gunk out usually makes things work better!

I love revolvers. Wife? Not so much and for concealed carry they tend to be a bit bulkier. Even my Ruger LCR is "bulkier" than the LCP.

WILLEO6709 said:

most of the modern automatics....work out of the box with little or no finesse. for concealed carry I recomend a decocking lever model... carry it locked, loaded, decocked so its double action first shot, single action after that.. but the golden rule,,, she needs to decide it in the end. Revolvers are good for simplicity and 'always working". If its a group maybe they have a shoot around and let her get a feel what she likes.

Click to expand...

Yep, I use the Sig P220 for carry. See above about wife and revolvers.

timeseeker said:

Try using different ammo in the Mark 1 if you're using lead use a FMJ ammo,also if your wife is absorbing the recoil with her arm that will cause problems with the weak 22 ammo,not enough power to cycle the rounds.

The Ruger SR22 is a nice little light weight 22-17oz and seems to have no trouble with any of the cheaper ammo but the 22 is not much for stopping power,around here 22 shells are sold out everywhere and have been for over a year? plus some places have a 3 box maximum?

Click to expand...

That's part of the "weird" of this. Same ammo as when it shot "okay" Winchester Super-X power points. This is not intended for a "carry" gun. I am just looking for a good range shooter for her.

barky said:

SW feather weight alum and SS frame. Loaded with .38 Plus P wadcutters. Yes I know wadcutters? Stats indicate more damage in a low velocity round (short barrel) than a JHP. I like the gun myself, easy to carry all day & night, you never even know your wearing it. For me, wheel guns mean no failures in a L/D.

Click to expand...

I don't think that .38 +Ps are going to have less recoil and blast in a "feather weight" than a .380 in an LCP. Actually, a revolver will have a bit more "flash" to it, more than likely. Not what we are looking for (see a better explanation below).

toolsteel said:

Take the Mrs. to a well stocked gun range. We have a few around here that you can "rent" a gun from. You rent the gun, buy the ammo and have some fun. I rented a 9mm Springfield XD and ended up buying one.....I loved it. Nothing like "test driving" before buying.......on another note....when I took my concealed carry class, my instructor told me that it is a good idea to run through your test with a caliber that you plan to carry. If you test with a .22 then end up using a .45 to shoot someone the very first thing that an opposing lawyer will do is claim that you were unfamiliar with the gun you used because you tested on a .22 but then carried a .45. And that is evidence of some sort of "Dirty Harry" complex. Not saying that is extremely important, but it would be one more piece against you.....I never figured to carry a 9mm.......but similar to what others have said....a 9mm fits MY hand well, and I can put 8 out of 10 rounds right where I want to. Admittedly, nowhere near the stopping power of a .357......but 3 .357 rounds into a wall doesn't stop the intended target....but may stop an unintended target.

Click to expand...

It would be nice if I could take her to a "well stocked gun range" but the only one we have is the one she was at. Between what they have for "rental" guns and their general attitude, the place is a joke but they have a monopoly in the area at the moment. My options there are very limited.

Looking back on my OP I see that I am less than clear as to what I am looking for here. I am NOT concerned about what to get her for concealed carry at this time. What I am looking for is suggestions for something that we could look at that would be comfortable for her to shoot at the range. She needs to get comfortable with shooting before I try to get her comfortable with something that is, shall we say, less than comfortable to shoot. That's why we tried to go with the Mark I, comfort.

When I look at my collection of handguns I find that the are a bit restricted as far as different calibers. I have a couple of .357s that she is NOT fond of (even loaded with .38s), a number of .45 ACPs that are a bit too much for her to shoot for an extended amount of time, and everything else is .45 Colt, .454, or .500. Not the best selection of stuff to learn on. She has the .380 LCP that she can shoot in class for CCW as well as keep in her purse but it is not fun to shoot for extended times on the range either.

My wife is a bit over average height and also on the petite side. She will certainly be involved in the selection process as I know as well or better than anyone that the feel of a gun is a very individual thing. Oddly enough, though I've been shooting for forty years or so, I have never fired a 9mm, .32, or most any other smaller calibers (her .380 was the first of those I have shot) so it is difficult for me to judge what may be in the acceptable range of recoil/flash for her to use for a range gun. I'm looking for suggestions as to what we should go look at, a "starting point" any way.

The 9mm in a medium size gun sounds good to me but how does it rate in recoil/flash compared to a the LCP in .380? Without being able to shoot all the different guns available we are kind of shooting in the dark. (Sorry, sorry. Pardon the pun, I just had to though. )

Hopefully that's a little clearer,

-Ron

An influence on the gun choice will also be the holster choices. Holster selection seems to be harder for women, its hard to wear lots of women's clothing and conceal a gun in it and body type matters too more than a guy.

As mentioned, the more easily concealed it is, the worse it is to shoot. Something like a J frame revolver is easy to carry, nice round lines conceals well, but something like a S&W Shield and a matching M&P 9, or a Glock 26 and 19/17 will get her use to the same platform style and something easier to shoot, common caliber, and as reliable as the come.

Me, I found my .45 easier to shoot than any of my others, but its hard to be easier than a full steel frame .45.

Also, take/get her to take some additional classes. I don't know what part of Nebraska you are in, but Bill Regina at SRT Tactical does classes around Topeka, Kansas City, and lots of other places that are good to take. He does basic CCW classes, women only classes, low light, vehicle classes, etc, etc. Its one thing to shoot on a square range, but actual drills in more life like environment is something entirely different.

*edit* I thought this was for a carry gun, if she wants something other than a .22, go pick up a Glock 19, or a M&P 9, whichever she likes more.

My wife likes her Browning Buckmark .22 with bull barrel. It has been reliable and accurate. It has the typical flash, kick etc. that you would expect from a .22

How about a S&W Model 617 revolver in 4" barrel for range day and practice and a Model 686 with 2.5" barrel for self defense or even a J frame revolver if she would like to carry something smaller. They are dead simple to use, load, and will in turn exude confidence. Then as your wife becomes more competent with the function of firearms you can then introduce her to a semi auto pistol.

I wish more people would start out using revolvers as they help you with trigger control and sight picture as well as being dead simple to use, increasing confidence all the while. As a gun shop owner I always recommend a revolver first however most people consider them old fashioned and thus inferior however they are not. You don't have misfeeds, failure to eject, stovepipes etc with a double action revolver. If the round doesn't fire pull the trigger again and it will more often than not, fire. If it doesn't fire it is either unloaded, has a broken firing pin ( very rare) or broken spring (rarer yet) which could happen to any firearm.

The best comparison for 380/9mm I can think of is 38spl/357 Mag. 9mm is a step up in terms of power but there are some big differences to. Except for the old Colt Mustangs and some Beretta's most 380's were small framed and often alloy/aluminum. The short barrel and light weight exaggerated felt recoil and muzzle flash more than normal.

In 9mm you run the gamut from super compact polymer to steel framed full size 1911's and CZ's. If she can shoot your 45's but just finds them to be a bit much for extended range sessions then a 1911 in 9mm could be a decent option. In a Commander or GM size she shouldn't have a problem and it will more than likely be more pleasant than the 380 compact. HiPower's are a touch fatter but not as bad as the Glocks or other double stack guns. I'm not a big fan of Smith's older single stack 9's with some of the tiny springs and things that can fly off, but you can usually find a clean used one cheap as a starter gun. Sig, Hk, Walther, and a few others used to make single stack 9's all of which were quality products.

You might want to think about getting a 22 top end for your 1911. If she finds the grip accommodating it's a cheap and easy solution for the moment. As a bonus you can use it for practice to and save on ammo.