Info Request on AL Bedding Block

Hi Guys,

Hey there Mr. G,

I haven't been around in a while, Looks as if I've got some reading to do!

First a little note, for all the Black Rifle builders out there, I just finished a rifle using a High Standard receiver. If they all come like this one, Man! Simply Gorgeous! I didn't even have to ream phosphate out of the holes! I did absolutely NOTHING to this receiver! I don't know about you, but it's been a while since I've been able to say that!

Now for my question, and yes, I performed the sacred search, got 4 hits, and only one of them was useful.

Does anyone have a set of plans, a detailed sketch, or even just a sketch, on Milling An Aluminum Receiver Block? It seems as I get older I'm reverting to Kindergarten, I need pictures.

I have a Donor gun and I want to document the things I change as I go.

I have a Savage 112V Series J, in 25-06 and a 4 X 9 Leupy on it. It has been a jackhandle since the day I bought it. The scope is fine on other guns.

I Acraglassed it, free floating the barrel, that helped some. I worked over that nasty trigger, it's not bad now, no change in accuracy but an improvement in comfort. I'm considering an Accu-Trigger.

I re-crowned it, bigger help but still not good. The action should be more than rigid enough as it is single feed {No Magazine of any type}. And I have a new 30-06 barrel on stand-by to screw in at the end, unless miracles happen. And also a thicker recoil lug on order.

If you are not a great artist, like me, I'd be just as Pleased to get your info by PM. I should still be listed but just in case [email protected]

TIA for any assistance.

Take Care and Be Well,

Ken

Have you slugged the barrel or bore scoped it?

bedding block

Ken

I'm new here and only been hobby smithing for a few years, also at 54 I know how it is
to loose sight of and over look things that you know d___n good and well. So I have
no intent to offend if I ask or suggest some fundamental stuff.
You've already gone the acraglass route and the other external ( to the barreled action )
accuracy tweaks. Have you checked for equal % of lug engagement, throat erosion?
Its a Savage so I hope that headspace is set to min. While the headspace may be fine,
someone before may have overly throated and you have too much freebore.
If I may suggest a good slathering of Dykem blue. Check those locking lugs, blue up
a round and chamber it. When you extract the round, what do you see? Is there evidence
that the bullet has engaged the lands? ( current thinking for non magnums ) Might there
be a gouge somewhere?

In short, from your post it seems that you've done enough external work and if you
haven't done so yet; it's time to look at what is going on inside your action.

One of my first re-barrel jobs on a Mauser was a 25-06. I was lucky, the first five
rounds at 100yds you could cover with a nickel and there were two figure "8's".

I wish you the best of luck at reducing the MOA on that puppy!
Tinker

I will try and cover all I did, but this one turned into a Closet Queen. I have been trying to find my old notes. I haven't done much 'smithin since I left the service. Recently my son wanted a Black Rifle and only had money enough to do it payday at a time. That is where I came across these AL bedding blocks. I found 1 picture but it was taken at such an angle as to be of no help.

nhkuehl- Yes, I made chamber cast with Cerrosafe, it mic'ed out OK with a slightly long throat. I was seating the projectile up into the throat to take up free bore, actually touching the lands. Far enough out on the projectiles that I couldn't close my range box {One of those MTM Plastic boxes with a handle}

And Yes again, I scoped the barrel, basically it looked as if it had been rifled with a plow. Really nasty. As I said before I crowned it and ran 15 of those rounds with the lapping compound built in; 3 rds each of 5 progressively finer grades.

Hey there Tinkerfive. Thanks for the preamble, but no offense to be taken. It's been a long time and I'm getting back into some limited 'smithin to supplement a fixed income, and to keep the mind occupied. For the most part I restore "Old Iron"--Lathes, Mills, Shapers and the like. But I need a project from time to time for a change of pace.

The fundamentals are there for a reason. As above I checked the chamber cast, and set my re-loading dies appropriately. No, I have never checked the % of lug engagement. Good thought. Head space is min by GO--NO GO gages.

I knew the bore was bad, which is why I got the 30-06 bbl. But this looked like a chance to wring some things out and refresh an old brain.

I can add some more fuel to the fire. The cold bore shot was dead on to 300 yds but got bad after that. Then you could be having a real good 3 rd. group going and out of the blue it would send a flyer; 3 inches to 3 feet, no tellin.

The other thing I noticed is that while the bolt lugs seem to be locked, the bolt handle and bolt itself rattles around from the "Washer/Shims" back. The cases show no abnormal signs.

Nice job on that Mauser Tinker!

Take Care and Be Well,

Ken

Ken,

I had a similar barrel (rifled with a plow) and it did everything you are mentioning. The culprit was the friction from the rough bore and you couldn't keep it from fouling. Bottom line, put the new barrel on. I put a couple hundred dollars worth of ammo down range before I admitted defeat and got a new barrel. I now have a consistent .5 MOA rifle. Lugs, trigger and bedding were fine.

Nate

Hi Nate,

Yes, Thanks, I've come to that conclusion also. But I wanted to put it in an AL Bedding Block while I was at it. I'm glad your rifle turned out well!

I also respect and own a number of Savage rifles. This one was purchased near the time they were having business problems. I think the tooling was pushed beyond normal usage limits.

The only frustration I have is the "New" Savage won't support the "Original" Savage Rifles. You can call them and before you get out the whole Model number they don't even want the serial number. And they go into their canned apology.

They also have one of the few Rifle Company websites that require you to be a paid member. But it still changes nothing, No Support for the "Original" Rifles.

So......to bring it back home......as I asked before....

Does anyone have a set of plans, a detailed sketch, or even just a sketch, on Milling An Aluminum Receiver Block? It seems as I get older I'm reverting to Kindergarten, I need pictures.

TIA,

Take Care and Be Well,

Ken

So, Is this a stupid question? Or What? I'm sorry to bother ya'all.
I just caught a fine drawing and Math puzzle on measuring a 5 groove slug.
Does anyone have an AI stock? Supposedly it has a "V" top to the bedding block to accommodate almost any barreled action.
Just a sketch to bring me up to speed..........................................................................
Anyone??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Take Care and Be Well,

Ken

Well, I was PM'd a picture {Thanks!} and added to the other pic I have, I'm getting a clue.

But I have a few more questions now.

So is it just that bedding the square block into the stock is easier than a true "bedding" or a pillar bed?

Now I understand the "interchangeability" concept of it.

What do you do if there is a lug on the action? Does or can it touch the "block' as it moves aft under recoil? Do or can you anchor the lug to the block with a set screw? How about forward of the lug? An air space? Or a slot in the block? Bedding compound 360?

Can you come in Horizontally to secure the stock to the block? Or will that lead to cracks?

If I'm gonna custom cut this block, should I exactly match the underside of my action? Or still incorporate some "V" into it?

Plodding on.

Ken

Check out Larry Racines site-http://www.lprgunsmith.com/index.asp. He does a lot with Savage. He's a good guy also.
xring

Many Thanks Xring!

I'll check him out.

Take Care and Be Well,

Ken

The catch to the bedding block is that no matter how good you make it, the action that fits into it is neither round, straight, or true, so you will end up bedding it anyway :-).

I deeply understand that you have this idea firmly in your mind and want to pursue it, BUT IMHO a good pillar bed job(with stainless or aluminum pillars) using devcon stainless steel putty 1/4" thick or more will be a BETTER job and more accurate, then do a final skin bed with acraglass.

The bedding block IMHO is a marketing tool, it sells stocks :-)....and it is a way to add some stiffness to a composite stock like the HS that is sort of "floppy" to begin with.

If you REALLY want to exercise your noodle think about barrel bedding it in a block that completely surrounds the barrel...done this way the barrel on one side and the action on the other free float.....many 1000 yard BR rifles are built up that way.

Bill

Hi Bill,

Yes, a Devcon pillar bed should also be accurate. Or I guess I should say has been proven accurate.

"The bedding block IMHO is a marketing tool, it sells stocks :-)...."
Interesting observation, with more than grain of truth.

"If you REALLY want to exercise your noodle think about barrel bedding it in a block that completely surrounds the barrel...done this way the barrel on one side and the action on the other free float....."

Yes, I came across that in my research. Very interesting! But I can't figure how to pull it off with a Savage that has the screwed on barrel block. Unless I forego the collar and thread everything all the way into the block. But then what about Bolt Lug Support to set the headspace?

Also I was wondering, I have a 112 Series J, no magazine, solid bottom to the receiver. Surely that is a rigid enough action to produce an accurate rifle?

Are you a Full Fledged Gunsmith? Do you take on projects?

Take Care and Be Well, Ken

Canyonman said:

Hi Bill,

Yes, a Devcon pillar bed should also be accurate. Or I guess I should say has been proven accurate.

"The bedding block IMHO is a marketing tool, it sells stocks :-)...."
Interesting observation, with more than grain of truth.

"If you REALLY want to exercise your noodle think about barrel bedding it in a block that completely surrounds the barrel...done this way the barrel on one side and the action on the other free float....."

Yes, I came across that in my research. Very interesting! But I can't figure how to pull it off with a Savage that has the screwed on barrel block. Unless I forego the collar and thread everything all the way into the block. But then what about Bolt Lug Support to set the headspace?

Also I was wondering, I have a 112 Series J, no magazine, solid bottom to the receiver. Surely that is a rigid enough action to produce an accurate rifle?

Are you a Full Fledged Gunsmith? Do you take on projects?

Take Care and Be Well, Ken

Click to expand...

Last first, I am a "dabbler" not a full time gunsmith :-).

I forgot you said "savage" when I get around to rebarreling one it will not have a barrel nut, no need for one really IMHO, the factory had a need but if your fitting a quality barrel there is no need or want for one.

I have a couple 700 rem short actions that are conventionally pillar bedded that will shoot in the .2's so ya the solid bottom savage should be capable of that or better.

The POI shift sort of indicates a bedding problem to me, but it could just be a bad barrel too...lots of people think plain old acraglass is not hard enough to be a top notch bedding compound.

Have you checked your bedding ?? Do you know how to ?? Some use a dial indicator, and others just use their finger feeling the gap between the barrel and the forend as they alternately tighten and loosen each bedding screw. Any motion is bad because it shows your stressing the action (bending it actually). Look for stupid mistakes everybody has made like having the bedding screws rub the sides of the holes, having the recoil lug touching on the sides or bottom (some like to bed one side for their own reasons but I do not) having the screws so long that they really do not hold the action down properly.......I always look for dumb stuff first ;-).

The bedding block is not a BAD idea, but when it is all done, and you have to use a bedding compound anyway due to the actions not being a perfect cylinder......the end result of the bedding block is that it stiffened up the stock a bit I guess.

I have pondered it over and over myseld, and it is tempting to just mill a bog hole in the stock and plop a block of aluminum in there, but in a gun with a magazine the end result may not be as good as pillar bedding really....I have even thought of threading a socket head cap screw into the block through the bottom of the pistol grip, and maybe one in from the butt end of the stock....the one through the pistol grip would stop the stock from breaking there ever.


Bill

Bedding Blocks

AGI-- American Gunsmith Institute has a Darrell Holland video on the Vee bedding blocks that he makes. I thought it was well worth the cost. I have several Remingtons that have the Aluminum bedding block. They were all screwed up in one way or another. When properly reworked they have all resulted in good varmint / hunting rifles.

Hi Boucher,

Yes, I am familiar with the AGI Videos. So--Vee Bedding Blocks by Darrell Holland? OK, Great! I'll look into that. Thank You!

BTW, after the Video, did you complete the re-work or hire it out?

Take Care and Be Well, Ken

AGI DVD on Order!

Ken

I'm new to this forum but I've been a gunmaker for 10 years and now own my own shop.

I'd strongly encourage you to avoid an aluminum bedding block. Bedding does not turn a pigs ear into a silk purse. I know some use these blocks and the degrees of success vary quite a bit.

Regardless, good luck on your quest and if I can be of any help, feel free to ask.

All the best,

Chad

Welcome to the Forum Chad, Glad to have you!

I had thought about opening a shop when I retired from the Service, but I just didn't want to deal with the BATF BS.

I find this topic interesting now. Some say the AL Block is the "Holy Grail" of accuracy. Some of the Big Companies go with it, Accuracy International comes to mind. But there are some strong opinions! Yes or No, and a very few on middle ground.

I'm gonna run with an attempt on the AL block. Mostly for the experience and because I have a donor rifle.

Thanks Muchly for the offer of assistance. To be sure I'll hollar if/when I need help.

Do you have a website?????

Take Care and Be Well,
Ken

A good indication of bedding issues is when the rifle exhibits a significant zero change while using bullets of different weights. As stated above, whittle out two blocks or pillars that are a good fit to your receiver, front and back, hog out the stock to accommodate and epoxy the pillars in place. The larger the pillars the better and be sure to torque up the action screws to full value before the epoxy starts to kick. I use 7075 for carry rifles. Again, make sure that the pillars are an intimate fit to the receiver. I had a 308 mounted in a cheep synthetic stock that had been epoxy bedded in the usual way. The rifle was a 2 and a half-inch gun and would shift zero about 7 inches at 100 with a change from 150 grain to 168-grain bullets. As a last resort I pillar bedded the thing and then put 10 into less than an inch and three quarters, at a hundred, with a mix of 5 each of the two bullet weights. Sometimes the results can be dramatic, especially with a flexible synthetic stock.
Have fun, Mike

I do have a site.

www.longriflesinc.com


Regarding the subject of bedding an action to a stock.

I was first taught how to do this during my tenure with the Anschutz National Service Center in Colorado Springs. The man I worked for was a former US National Team Coach back in the 60's and 70's. His son is the present National Team Coach.

The purpose behind bedding a stock is to provide an inert, tension free environment for the barreled action to nest in. The idea being to have a foundation that ignores changes in ambient conditions.

This is traditionally done as a precision casting of the receiver using a low shrinkage, high shore hardness resin system. Gunsmiths all have their pet favorite resins and I am no different. Regardless of what a person decides to use, it needs to have the qualities I mentioned.

I built 22rimfire guns for Olympic Team Athletes at the US Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs. I did quite a bit of experimentation on my own while there and in the end it pretty much lead me back to the same conclusion. A precision casting from resin is better than a machined register. I will say that not all the same rules apply when dealing with rimfire guns though. A 22 typically travels at about 1/3rd the speed of any modern centerfire cartridge. Because of that it is in the barrel about 3 times longer and this allows certain forces to influence things a bit longer. Vibrations, harmonics, frequency, and amplitude are the buzz words that go along with this.

A resin system based bedding job will help mitigate some of this if done properly. It's been my experience that an alloy block struggles.

My ol man is a home audio geek and it's rubbed off on me a bit. I have a lust for vinyl records. My stereo at home is all class A with tube amps and yada yada. When I chose my turn table I was faced with purchasing a stylus for the tone arm. During my research I discovered that the really REALLY high end stuff typically recommends a company out of Germany that makes a stylus that is completely encapsulated by a block of English walnut. Reason being that walnut has a natural ability to mitigate unwanted "static" and clutter. Meaning it dampens all those buzz words I used earlier better than just about anything else.

There's a long standing arguement/wives tale/belief/folk lore in the shooting community that wood guns shoot better than "plastic" ones. I won't go out on a limb and state that I completely agree with this but I have done some experimentation and I think there may be something to it.

(sorry for being so long winded) In 2003 I was an armorer for the United States Palma Team. One of the shooters later had me build him a Palma Rifle. We chose a synthetic stock made by Robertson composites and I decided to use him for a lab rat. I worked for Nesika Bay Precision at the time as the manager for gun production. We had large garbage bags full of walnut shavings from the stock making dept that we used for dry sweep on the floors. I took some of these shavings and mixed them with epoxy to make something that resembled those oatmeal chocolate drop cookies. I then gutted most of the stocks core and filled it with this. Then inletted and bedded over it.

This rifle uses nothing but premium components throughout so I can't honestly say that what I did made all the difference. I can say though it certainly didn't hurt anything. The rifle holds 1/3rd minute of angle elevation at 1000 yards. (It's the blue gun on the cover of my web page. ) I've done this to two Palma guns now. The second is the current World Champion (Kyle Leibertrau, JR division).





Here is an example of what one of my pillar stock bedding jobs looks like when completed.



I got a bit long winded on this but maybe someone somewhere somehow will get a grain of help from this.

Cheers and all the best,

Chad

Chad Dixon
Gunmaker
LongRifles, Inc.