Which lathe for gunsmithing?

I'm looking to buy a lathe (then learn to use it) for general gunsmithing; the only requirement that I have so far is an adequate thru the spindle bore of 1 3/8" or so for barrel threading. I would like to buy an American-made machine and my budget dictates a used machine. I'm thinking of the Southbend Heavy 10; any opinions? So far I have been able to use an old Atlas 6" for screwmaking and general turning, but really need something larger. Thanks

1 vote for the 10l

Hello, My 4th lathe that I own now is the heavy 10. I have the long bed, I think around 56 inches. Can do about 33-34 inches between centers. I owned 2 -9 inch south bends before this , so I looked at alot of lathes american and imports and decided on the 10l. Always plenty of repair parts around and user friendly. I put a dc motor on mine with the adjustable speed. The clausing is a great lathe also. I also set my lathe up with a 2j collet speed chuck. 1-3/8 cap, same as bore. I would buy a lathe in top shape even at a premium price. I paid a little over 3k for mine. I have hard ways and d1-4 spindle. I have seen them go for $500 & up out here in Calif. I have seen them priced over $5k. I like the old saying, buy cheap and you will end up buying twice. I have a gunsmith friend that uses a Jet and he says its junk. The coumpond sheared off the thing,(Jet). I am very happy with my lathe and it will out live me at age 50. An old machinist friend told me regarding whatI paid for my lathe, "its not much money spread over a lifetime". Good luck , Alan

A heavy ten is a good choice, follow the man's advice
above. Also the SB 13 inch machine is very similar in
terms of spindle, but is a somewhat more solid machine.
Often can be found for about the same price.

Jim

gunsmithing lathe

Thanks for the great answers; I'm going to look for a SB heavy 10 or 13" in the best condition that I can afford. Two more questions: are hardened ways optional and are they worth holding out for? Also, I'm guessing that it's going to take around $5K for a really good SB lathe, it this about right? Thanks again for all the help.

If you don't have a line on one, keep your options open. Use the search function, there are several threads in this forum on your question.
Rob

There is also a Logan 11" machine that takes 5C collets (which means 1.375 inch
ID spindle) and I think a clausing as well.

In the SB machines, any lathe with hand-scraped, soft beds, of that vintage, will
probably have a fair amount of wear on the ways. If you happen to find an
older machine, with non-hardened ways, where the ways are in mint condition,
it would be a good choice. But hardened ways are preferred I would say.

Jim

thanks again for the info; I know a lot more now than I did when I posted this question.

Look for a good lathe, more spindle bore is better. Ideally the headstock isn't any longer than about 16" so you can use a spider to support a barrel at both ends. You want the full range of threading capability, and since you'll be learning watch for a low-end speed that isn't too high - it's much nicer to learn to cut threads on a lathe that will turn at 60 than one whose bottom speed is 200.

Look for dials that are incremented in sensible amounts, unless you also get a DRO. Dials that are 1.0625" per turn generate a lot of mistakes over long moves.

A cam-lock spindle (chuck mount) is preferred, threaded spindles are great, but have some associated problems (stuck, unthreading, etc.)

Get a QC toolpost if the lathe doesn't come with one - 'nuff said.

Tooling will cost almost as much as the machine, bear this in mind if you're looking at used machines - a machine that comes with 3-jaw, 4-jaw, steady rest and follow rest is worth substantially more than one that does not. (For gunsmithing you will use all of those, plus collets, perhaps a 6-jaw, the QC toolpost and lots of holders).

For learning how to use it check out both the Southbend lathe book and "The Amateur's Lathe" by Sparey. Both classics with loads of great info.

GsT

GsT

aap2,

I'll concur that the 13" South Bend is the most practical choice.

The so-called 'heavy ten', listed as the 10"-1" collet model, is a lesser choice, except for really small work. The SB 'heavy ten' is really a 'miniature lathe' with a larger spindle for the 5C collet. That said, its a miniature lathe which is capable of good commercial accuracy, and has proven very cost-effective for light work.

Finding a 13" South Bend in very good condition, which is of sufficiently late production to have the hardened ways and 'L-00' taper spindle nose, may take a good bit of looking, but its worth the time invested. (some late model ones were fitted with the 'D1-4' camlock spindle nose, which is even better than the 'L-00' but not enough so as to be a major consideration)

Ideally, you want the model which they called the 'toolroom lathe', which was supplied with the taper attachment, and collet closer, usually the hand-lever type. A hand-wheel type of collet closer is equally good for the generality of non-production work, as is the 'Sjogren' type of collet closer. The 13" and heavy pattern 10" South Bend lathes use the common 5C collet.

If you find an otherwise acceptable lathe, with no collet closer and collet bushing for the spindle, no problem, those parts, as with most other SB tooling, are readily available.

A good one won't be cheap, unless you are extremely lucky, but thats alright, a South Bend in good condition, used and cared for with reasonable care, is a 'life-time' investment.

Almost all 13" South Bends, and many of the 'heavy 10" machines, are fitted with a 230V 3-phase motor and 'drum' type reversing switch. (some have magnetic starters, but those were 'special order' for South Bend machines, and are not common) If you haven't three-phase power, you will need to set up a 'phase converter', which is simple and cost-effective.

cheers

Carla

"The SB 'heavy ten' is really a 'miniature lathe' with a larger spindle for the 5C collet."

Indeed - but it is probably hands-down the biggest miniature lathe ever built.

Jim

If your budget is 5K, consider a larger machine if you can fit it in.
SB was a fine machine in its day, but the design is typical of pre WW1 machines.
They tend to be short on power and high on price because of the name recignition, simplcity to operate, and weight. They were designed before carbie tooling and coolant pumps were common. Given the choice of a heavy 10 or 13, take the 13. Its hands down a better machine.

A more modern design with heavier construction will be better suted to modern tooling. (lower chater and better surface finishes) The problem for gunsmiths is the newer bigger machines have long head stocks and its difficult to support a barrel at both ends while chambering. That means chambering on a steady rest. A lot of good used manual equiptment has hit the used market with the recent recession. Hunt aroung for a machine in GOOD condition that will meet your needs.

Harginge may probably be outside of your budjet, but well worth looking at. They are a dream to thread with and the HVL is big enough for gun work. They are a leage above the heavy 10.

The EE monarch is long in the head stock, and electricaly complex, but also a fine tool room lathe. The short distance between centers, and long headstock make it less popular for gunsmithing, but have a lot of power and precision in a stiff, compact package. For a basic garage lathe they are hard to beat.

Rivets also have good reptuations.

Leblond servo shifts should be checked under power - the shifter can be a real problem.
Leblond regals are usualy solid machines, and a little simpler.

Clausings are all over the place in quality. The colchester series tends to be very nice. Some of the Clausing / atlas machines are OK, some are not.

And the list goes on ....


Put together a set of specfications.
Figure out what types of tooling are reasonably priced/ popular and find a machine.

Things like ease of chuck change, collets, length of head stock, accessories like steay and follow rests are all important.

ahall said:

If your budget is 5K, consider a larger machine if you can fit it in.
SB was a fine machine in its day, but the design is typical of pre WW1 machines.
They tend to be short on power and high on price because of the name recignition, simplcity to operate, and weight. They were designed before carbie tooling and coolant pumps were common. Given the choice of a heavy 10 or 13, take the 13. Its hands down a better machine.

A more modern design with heavier construction will be better suted to modern tooling. (lower chater and better surface finishes) The problem for gunsmiths is the newer bigger machines have long head stocks and its difficult to support a barrel at both ends while chambering. That means chambering on a steady rest. A lot of good used manual equiptment has hit the used market with the recent recession. Hunt aroung for a machine in GOOD condition that will meet your needs.

Harginge may probably be outside of your budjet, but well worth looking at. They are a dream to thread with and the HVL is big enough for gun work. They are a leage above the heavy 10.

The EE monarch is long in the head stock, and electricaly complex, but also a fine tool room lathe. The short distance between centers, and long headstock make it less popular for gunsmithing, but have a lot of power and precision in a stiff, compact package. For a basic garage lathe they are hard to beat.

Rivets also have good reptuations.

Leblond servo shifts should be checked under power - the shifter can be a real problem.
Leblond regals are usualy solid machines, and a little simpler.

Clausings are all over the place in quality. The colchester series tends to be very nice. Some of the Clausing / atlas machines are OK, some are not.

And the list goes on ....


Put together a set of specfications.
Figure out what types of tooling are reasonably priced/ popular and find a machine.

Things like ease of chuck change, collets, length of head stock, accessories like steay and follow rests are all important.

Click to expand...

I'll chime in a second to the vote on the EE Monarch. Really nice if you can find one, but they tend to be pricey, for good reason. Not the most simple electrics, a little long in the headstock, but man they cut nice, and parts are fairly available.

The HLV, and the HLVH by hardinge brothers are nice
machines. However they do not have a 1.375 inch
ID spindle.

They also have no back gears so if low speed is required
for some operations this is problematic. Fitting a
VFD to those machines is also more complicated than usual.

In this sense I would actually recommend a southbend
heavy ten over the HLVH, even aside from price.

Jim

Are any of the new Chinese or Taiwan machines worth a look or are they junk? I'm in the same boat as the OP and am baffled by the wide variety and price range of the new foreign machines and am afraid to purchase used because I don't know how to spot problems before it's too late.

I've had a chance at several machines that I thought were a steal but couldn't get myself to actually follow through because I was afraid there might be an obvious problem with the units that I was incapable of spotting.

I see Birmingham's top machines look identical to Clausings for way less than half of what Clausing wants for theirs. I understand Clausing is building their lathes in China now and wonder if these roll off the same assembly line?

Hey Chad,
I see you found another forum. Welcome! A lot of people on this forum would love to hear about you $100,000 machines and your genius in making them start.
Butch

I have a grizzly G4003G, It's a decent lathe for the money. Being a chinese import - I think it's a good value, I've had little things come loose but I think that's mostly just break in issues. I just do a check list before I start any work. I've done alot of tooling on it and one barrel so far and it has done a great job and real easy to use and all for just under $3000. I stopped buying grizzly accessories because most of the tooling is of poor quality. I wanted a new machine for the same reason - I didn't want to buy someone else's headaches.

Since you are new to lathe work, I would suggest that you buy a new lathe like a Grizzly G4003 or a Jet, They come pretty well tooled and additional tooling is easy to find. You will have enough to learn not having to fight an old lathe. While some people can get amazing results out of wornout machines, they could do better work with better equipment.

Unfortunately we, as a nation fiddled away our heavy industrial base and foundries, quit training students to work in the trades and find ourselves without a factory that can produce Amercan made lathes for a competetive price.

If you have years of experience which many here have, you can look at a lathe and pretty well tell how it has been used and how it has been cared for.

I think you have to make up you mind if you are going to build guns or rebuild old lathes, both can be fun but trying to do both and learn can be discouraging. Been there and done that.

As always this is just my humble opinion

Lowell

1. Comes with lots of tooling and accessories that someone else paid a lot of money for or scrounged over a lifetime
2. Adequate swing is not an issue but a bigger machine will usually be more ridgid
3. Adequate length for barrel work
4. Adequate spindle for barrels (1 3/8"+?)
5. Lots of tooling (see 1)
6. Slow spindle speeds available (<60rpm)
7. Is in good condition. It doesn't have to be new to do good work. The quality of the work is more often the machinist and not the machine when we are talking one-off gunsmithing.
8. quick change threading (including metric) is needed. You can do it with gears but.....Hard to get excited about the efficiency of "one off" jobs when you have to go thru a gear change.
9. Taper attachment: Wish I had one, seems like whatever you don't have is the thing you miss the most.

This is it. A good used lathe that is well tooled is always a bargain. Good used lathes that are well tooled are hard to find--for cheap. But they can be found if you are willing to pay a little more than the average bargain shopper. They are easier to find if you don't expect to get a several thousand dollar machine and more than that in tooling for $800. It happens, but unless you want to spend hundreds of hours over several years looking for that once in a lifetime deal......

My suggestion is to invest first in getting 3phase power (RPC)--this knocks out most of the hobby guys and moves you into the realm of getting a "real" machine capable of doing good work at a reasonable price. A higher quality, larger toolroom machine will often cost less than an Atlas someone can haul in an S10 and move with a dolly.

Buy from an individual if you can. There are thousands of old machinists (and gunsmiths) who have a nice machine at home, usually one they cared for at work and then bought at surplus at some point. They will be well tooled and the package is what you want. These guys are leaving us in one way or the other and the machines are out there if you can find them.

Try running an ad in the local paper "Wanted to buy, metal lathe, 9" x xx" or larger for gunsmith. Prefer well tooled. Will go to loving home and be appreciated"

As far as 3ph availability, you are not limited to an RPC.
VFD is another option.
My Bridgeport is running off a Hitachi VFD. Very simple to wire up, affordable.
Up and running in a couple hours or less, esp. with help from this forum.
Three phase problem solved.

Nobody has responded to my question regarding Chinese manufactured lathes that look identical to Clausings. The particular model I'm interested in is Birmingham's DLC-1640. It is a dead ringer for Clausing's lathe which costs 2.5times more. Clausing is building their lathe in China now and I was wondering if these came off the same assembly line.

I know you get what you pay for, but I can't afford a new Clausing and if I could it would come from China too. There is absolutely no pride in ownership when it comes to made in China.