Cnc lathe choice for gunsmith work

cgmaster · Jan 16, 2017

I have been looking at a Cnc lathe for gunsmith use. I am keeping my manual lathe also, for now.

I am trying to decide what is best. I plan to do the chambering, threading, possibly muzzles and engraving on the barrel. In addition the bar feeder I am considering making turned solid bullets.

I am looking hard at slant bed machines that are a little older with bar feeders. I am also looking at some of the flat bed "teach " lathes and Harding high precision lathes.

Also I am new to Cnc but already have a Milltronics vm17 which I use for some stuff and I have sold my manual mill due to not needing it any more.

Sometimes I also do other work for people making tools and light machine work. I guess I am trying to figure out it a slant bed lathe could do everything I want our if it would be better to have another flat bed lathe but with Cnc capabilities. Also if the older slant bed lathes could hold tolerance. Right now I am able to hold under .0005 reliably on my manual lathe. . Set up times are what really kills me time wise. I chamber and work the barrels on a steady rest. Would like to go through the headstock but my lathe is 27 inches through the headstock.

Any help or suggestions are welcome.

I have been looking very hard at 2 Hitachi Seki's, a Huyandai and a few Mazaks. On the flat beds I am looking at Milltronics and a Bridgeport Romi.

So far leaning towards a Mazak or if flat bed a Milltronics centurion 6. Which is the same control as my mill.

I also have inventor and hsm cam for inventor that seems to work well on my mill.

Thank you

300sniper · Jan 16, 2017

Do you have 3ph power?

cgmaster · Jan 16, 2017

Yes but limited. I have a rotary converter but know I will need a larger converter.

cgmaster · Jan 16, 2017

My mill is 15hp and my manual lathe is a 10hp. I plan to get our build a phase converter. Unfortunately I gave away a new 75 hp motor last year

ewlsey · Jan 16, 2017

You'd need around 250 amps to run that 75hp motor at full tilt. Probably more to get it started.

300sniper · Jan 16, 2017

Something to think about is the power required to convert to 3ph. The cost of my American Rotary RPC to power my 20 hp turning center was small compared to what I had to spend with my PoCo to upgrade my service to 400a.

Making solid bullets, if doing it for real, you're going to be looking at a Swiss turning machine.

If you are going to be chambering barrels and doing muzzle work, most slant bed turning centers are going to have a 30"+ spindle/drawtube length. This is very workable but it may not be for everyone.

Do you have the realestate for a bar feeder and enough product to make the foot print with it? Would you be better off pulling shorter bars with the turret?

I think engraving would be best as a second op on your mill. You're going to be doing another set up after chambering and getting into a live tooled turning center is going to jump the price way up. The. You've got to look at the tooling costs if it doesn't come with all the driven holders you need.

Compromises will need to be made. A Haas TL series seems to work good for barrel work due to the headstock length but you are giving up speed, hp, rigidity, and a real tool turret. You can do great chambering and other barrel work on a slant bed turning center and much more but you've got the larger footprint and power draw.

daz59 · Jan 17, 2017

cgmaster said:
I have been looking at a Cnc lathe for gunsmith use. I am keeping my manual lathe also, for now.

I am trying to decide what is best. I plan to do the chambering, threading, possibly muzzles and engraving on the barrel. In addition the bar feeder I am considering making turned solid bullets.

I am looking hard at slant bed machines that are a little older with bar feeders. I am also looking at some of the flat bed "teach " lathes and Harding high precision lathes.

Also I am new to Cnc but already have a Milltronics vm17 which I use for some stuff and I have sold my manual mill due to not needing it any more.

Sometimes I also do other work for people making tools and light machine work. I guess I am trying to figure out it a slant bed lathe could do everything I want our if it would be better to have another flat bed lathe but with Cnc capabilities. Also if the older slant bed lathes could hold tolerance. Right now I am able to hold under .0005 reliably on my manual lathe. . Set up times are what really kills me time wise. I chamber and work the barrels on a steady rest. Would like to go through the headstock but my lathe is 27 inches through the headstock.

Any help or suggestions are welcome.

I have been looking very hard at 2 Hitachi Seki's, a Huyandai and a few Mazaks. On the flat beds I am looking at Milltronics and a Bridgeport Romi.

So far leaning towards a Mazak or if flat bed a Milltronics centurion 6. Which is the same control as my mill.

I also have inventor and hsm cam for inventor that seems to work well on my mill.

Thank you

I own a small ish (4 staff) firearm accessories/mild gunsmithing company.
All that you want to do on the cnc, chambering/muzzle threading crowning and so on, I have pondered many times over how to run them through the cnc machines we have economically but I always come back to it being faster and cheaper doing it on manual machines, we thread and crown 5-10 rifles a day on a manual lathe.

Unless you are doing hundreds a day and have some pretty fast methods of setting up in the machine then id really think twice about getting a cnc lathe for what you want.

If you have a product that you can spit out all day long on the cnc then go for it......

cgmaster · Jan 17, 2017

Ty. I have room in my shop however I am running out as I get more ands more machines. I have about 20 by 25 for the lathe possibly more but I will have to move stuff around. My shop is 3500sq ft. I have been considering upgrading to 400 amp service. Right now I have 200. But am never even close to a heavy load. I am a one man operation. So I rarely run 2 machines at once. Since I am new to cnc. I usually keep a close eye on the mill as it is running and most of my programs are small. In addition I am not taking heavy cuts on my lathes doing this work. I guess I baby my machines. Even if I have a lathe with a 20 or 25 hp motor I don't think I would draw that much amperage since I was running light cuts. Starts and stops would be my largest loads but being on a vfd everything seems managable.

I have never used a Swiss type of lathe. I will have to do some research on them. I thought I would be able to turn solid bullets with a small slant bed with a bar feeder.

The other concern with cnc may have been answered for gunsmith work the setup time is what kills me time wise. The machining is quick. However I like the idea that I can set up my tenon and have everything set up to cut the tenon, chamber and all repeatedly everything should be dimensionally identical since I am using the same program. I will be able to cut and chamber without having the receiver and test fitting as much.

hanermo · Jan 17, 2017

Your plan is good, and everything will work out fine.
Any of the mentioned lathes will work.

Any can make bullets well.

This is my most important advice.
Economics may not matter to You.
A swiss etc. or other modern system can make the bullets in say 2 secs each.
At 300k.
An old cnc lathe, maybe 30 secs each.
At 10-20k.

If you sell expensive bullets in small quantities, the cheap old cnc lathe is the way to go.
Profitable from day one, paid off in 3 months.
If you sell lots of bullets for very small margin to wholesalers in qty 100k+ or 500k+, the swiss or similar is the way to go.
Maybe 0.03-0.1$ margin here.

The swiss is seemingly 15x cheaper at 0.005 cost/bullet, but the old one is more profitable, and vastly less risky, immediately.

Power wont matter. For you, here.
200 a x 220 = 44 kW.
Will run 3-4-6 production machines simultaneously, doing small work like yours.

The machines only take full power in acc/dec or max material removal, and this acc can de setup to go down 10x if you need.
So it takes 6 secs to go to full speed vs 1-2 secs.
hth

cgmaster said:
Ty. I have room in my shop however I am running out as I get more ands more machines. I have about 20 by 25 for the lathe possibly more but I will have to move stuff around. My shop is 3500sq ft. I have been considering upgrading to 400 amp service. Right now I have 200. But am never even close to a heavy load. I am a one man operation. So I rarely run 2 machines at once. Since I am new to cnc. I usually keep a close eye on the mill as it is running and most of my programs are small. In addition I am not taking heavy cuts on my lathes doing this work. I guess I baby my machines. Even if I have a lathe with a 20 or 25 hp motor I don't think I would draw that much amperage since I was running light cuts. Starts and stops would be my largest loads but being on a vfd everything seems managable.

I have never used a Swiss type of lathe. I will have to do some research on them. I thought I would be able to turn solid bullets with a small slant bed with a bar feeder.

The other concern with cnc may have been answered for gunsmith work the setup time is what kills me time wise. The machining is quick. However I like the idea that I can set up my tenon and have everything set up to cut the tenon, chamber and all repeatedly everything should be dimensionally identical since I am using the same program. I will be able to cut and chamber without having the receiver and test fitting as much.

cgmaster · Jan 17, 2017

Thank you. I am leaning toward Mazak. I really like the sqt lathes. I found 2 wroth y axis fairly cheap with tooling. And everything t+ controls that I can get for just over $25k. Figure another 5k to move and setup. From what I understand the control can take standard g code from auto desk hsm cam program.

tdmidget · Jan 17, 2017

". However I like the idea that I can set up my tenon and have everything set up to cut the tenon, chamber and all repeatedly everything should be dimensionally identical since I am using the same program. I will be able to cut and chamber without having the receiver and test fitting as much."

Huh? Are you producing for one model with the receivers also machined to that precision? If doing what comes through the door there's a good chance you would never have 2 that would swap.
Make absolutely sure that the Mazak can be programmed with G code. I worked at a place where they bought one with the conversational control and then wanted to add the G code (which is already there but you have to pay to get it operable) and it was 10 large for someone to come out and unlock it.

cgmaster · Jan 17, 2017

I do allot of target rifles with identical tenons and cut receivers to a standard dimension

The lathe I am looking at has t plus control with g code capability. I am trying to find out the electrical requirements, it is a sqt18ms with 25 hp spindle and 5hp milling spindle. I am not sure of the sub spindle power.

jakefreese · Jan 18, 2017

I am limited on power with no three phase. I have a 30hp phase converter at the moment and want to upgrade to a phase perfect. The Romi C420 is the top of my list right now, 12.5 spindle HP, I am not a production shop. You can get the turret for it also.

cgmaster · Jan 18, 2017

I will take a look at those. I think I found a Mazar sqt18ms it is supposed to hold under. 0002 tolerance.

I have spoke to a few people that suggested a dual 30hp converter setup. Which I can get for a little over 2k.

72bwhite · Jan 18, 2017

Should give some serious thought to getting a lathe with live tooling
just opens up many more parts possibilities.
something like a Haas tl2 if you just want to cut stuff like tenons.
turning projectiles well that's work for a gang turn lathe with a bar feeder.

cgmaster · Jan 20, 2017

All of the lathes I am looking at have live toolinh, c axis and one has subspindle and bar feeder. Not sure if I need the subspindle and barfeeder but I can get the lathe for the same price as the one with just a tailstock. Everything else is identical

Search

Largest Manufacturing Technology Community on the Web

Search

Cnc lathe choice for gunsmith work

cgmaster

Cast Iron

300sniper

Hot Rolled

cgmaster

Cast Iron

cgmaster

Cast Iron

ewlsey

Diamond

300sniper

Hot Rolled

daz59

Plastic

cgmaster

Cast Iron

hanermo

Titanium

cgmaster

Cast Iron

tdmidget

Diamond

cgmaster

Cast Iron

jakefreese

Hot Rolled

cgmaster

Cast Iron

72bwhite

Titanium

cgmaster

Cast Iron

Similar threads