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  1. #1
    Trooper Jake is offline Aluminum
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    Question FFL for gunsmithing

    Where I lived before, you could not get an ffl if the location was a house, you needed a commercial site. I now live in Tennessee and would like to get an ffl to take in some gunsmithing work at my house. I spoke with a BATF agent at a Nashville gun show and got a real runaround. Does anyone know if the BATF allows ffls for use in a private house, before I continue?
    Thanks,

  2. #2
    cheechako is offline Cast Iron
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    Jake

    Maybe things have changed but when I had my FFL the BATF&E had no control over where your business was as long as it had a legal street address. The local Zoning Commission did but they were two seperate government agencies, of course.

    Who knows how things work now-a-days. It wouldn't surprise me if BAT&F is using Zoning as an excuse to deny FFLs.

    Ray

  3. #3
    KenG is offline Plastic
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    I am in the middle of my FFL application right now and my shop is on my property with my home address and this didn't pose a problem. The ATF did require me to provide proof of zoning in my area, this is where you might find a problem. The other issue is if you get a dealer or manufacturer license; depending on the type of work you do my understanding is a manufacturer license might be required. There is a lot of grey area on this subject and I'm having a real hard time getting answers, I can't get the ATF tech branch on the phone and they have not replied to the fax I sent. Oh, they require a business license also.

  4. #4
    AW
    AW is offline Aluminum
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    Jake:
    It ALL depends on the local ords. Go see your town clerk or some such person at city or town hall. ATF requires you to meet all local ords first.
    Here in Cow Hampshire, there is a State statute that allows home businesses with restrictions-- no signs, trafic issues, only one employee other than members of the houshold, florr space in relation to total, etc., etc.

    Check those out first. ATF will process your application and is contingent on local stuff.
    They will contact the locals for verification. Your approval from Fed will not go through if local response is not A- OK.

    HTH
    Alan

    PS Better than NY Eh?

  5. #5
    huntinguy is offline Cast Iron
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenG View Post
    I am in the middle of my FFL application right now and my shop is on my property with my home address and this didn't pose a problem. The ATF did require me to provide proof of zoning in my area, this is where you might find a problem. The other issue is if you get a dealer or manufacturer license; depending on the type of work you do my understanding is a manufacturer license might be required. There is a lot of grey area on this subject and I'm having a real hard time getting answers, I can't get the ATF tech branch on the phone and they have not replied to the fax I sent. Oh, they require a business license also.

    Wasn't there a guy is Auburn, Wa. a few years back the ATF put in the big house for taking posession of some class 3's at his front door? as I recall the shop was in his garage, same physical address. Seems like his first name was Al.

    I would be very careful. Might want to email someone at the WAC (Washington Arms Collectors) they may have some insight.

  6. #6
    Tony Montana is offline Aluminum
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    I run my gunsmith business out of my detached converted one car garage. Like the others here said, get the local OK first (zoning, city/state licenses, etc) then pursue the FFL. All I needed was a conditional use permit from the city zoning board, approval of the city commission, and a city business license. The FFL was a breeze, but be prepared to wait a while. My 01 (dealer/gunsmith) took 8 months to go through which I've heard is about average.

  7. #7
    bandhmo is offline Aluminum
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    It has been A few years since I looked into the requirements before deciding it was more trouble then it was worth to me. However, I do not recall that a business address was a requirement. I do remember many people online recommending a separate address and building from the residence, especially for anyone planing to work with class III's. I seem to remember the reason had to do with inspections, records, raids, and privacy. At least with some license's the AFT could demand to search the business at anytime no reason required. I would look into the exact rules of the license you are getting and make sure you want it in your residence.

  8. #8
    Trooper Jake is offline Aluminum
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    I forgot to mention, I used to have an ffl, I had it for almost 8 years, then the local ordnance law went into place, plus the requirement for a state permit. To get the state permit you have to have a commercial address. I gave up the ffl before the police came marching in.
    Plus it was at a time when local police were trying to trick dealers into breaking the law.

  9. #9
    CS223 is offline Cast Iron
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    Boils down to your zoning. If nothing in you local prohibits you from having a business in your location then you are good. If there is no business license requirement etc., you will need to get a letter from your local governing agency stating that nothing prohibits you from operating the business from your home. That will go along with your Form 7 application.

  10. #10
    garyphansen is online now Titanium
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    When I had a FFL for gun smithing you needed a regular place of business and regular business hours in order to sell firearms. I got the FFL just for gun smithing and did not have a regular place of business or regular hours, so I could not even sell my own firearms when I had the FFL. Gary P. Hansen

  11. #11
    Blackthorn762 is offline Plastic
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    Can someone explain the difference between an 01 FFL for gunsmithing and an 01 FFL for firearms dealing? I have gone over the BATFE regs numerous times and can't find anything other than, when applying, you need to list regular business hours if you are applying as a dealer, but not if applying as a gunsmith. Beyond that, I can find NOTHING that would preclude the holder from buying and selling firearms once they have been approved and hold an 01 FFL.

  12. #12
    garyphansen is online now Titanium
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    There is no difference other than I posted above. Gary P. Hansen

  13. #13
    CS223 is offline Cast Iron
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    Generally an 01 is a Dealer in firearms. App. fee is $200. Many gunsmiths & custom builders use a type 07 Manufacturers FFL instead. It's a $150 app fee. You can still do all the things that you can under a 01 license but it's not considered a license to deal in firearms.

  14. #14
    Tony Montana is offline Aluminum
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    Gary,

    I believe that things must have changed since you had your FFL. You can denote personal firearms seperate from business ones by tagging them and keeping a seperate bound book for personal firearms. This tagging and bound book requirements only apply if you store your personal firearms at your place of business. If you don't use your FFL when buying and selling firearms from your personal collection you are a considered a non-licensee for those transactions. However if you devote time, attention, and labor...regular course of business, livelihood and profit, yada yada then you're running afoul of your "gunsmithing only" 01.

    The short version from the BATFE FAQs page: A licensee may sell a firearm from his or her personal collection, subject only to the restrictions on firearm sales by unlicensed persons, provided the firearm was entered in the licensee’s bound book and then transferred to the licensee’s private collection at least 1 year prior to the sale or was otherwise acquired as a personal firearm. When the personal firearm is sold, the sale must be recorded in a "bound book" for dispositions of personal firearms, but no ATF Form 4473 is required.


    And the whole shootin'-match from the reg book:
    § 478.125a Personal firearms collection. (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of this subpart, a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer is not required to comply with the provisions of § 478.102 or record on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, the sale or other disposition of a firearm maintained as part of the licensee's personal firearms collection: Provided, That (1) The licensee has maintained the firearm as part of such collection for 1 year from the date the firearm was transferred from the business inventory into the personal collection or otherwise acquired as a personal firearm, (2) The licensee recorded in the bound record prescribed by § 478.125(e) the receipt of the firearm into the business inventory or other acquisition, (3) The licensee recorded the firearm as a disposition in the bound record prescribed by § 478.125(e) when the firearm was transferred
    from the business inventory into the personal firearms collection or otherwise acquired as a personal firearm, and (4) The licensee enters the sale or other disposition of the firearm from the personal firearms collection into a bound record, under the format prescribed below, identifying the firearm transferred by recording the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge, and showing the date of the sale or other disposition, the name and address of the transferee, or the name and business address of the transferee if such person is a licensee, and the date of birth of the transferee if other than a licensee. In addition, the licensee shall cause the transferee, if other than a licensee, to be identified in any manner customarily used in commercial transactions (e.g., a driver’s license).


    An 01 gunsmith is subject to all the same rules as an 01 dealer (including personal firearms) except for the need to maintain hours and public access.

  15. #15
    Webb Wyman is offline Stainless
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    Hi There,

    Quote Originally Posted by CS223
    Generally an 01 is a Dealer in firearms. App. fee is $200. Many gunsmiths & custom builders use a type 07 Manufacturers FFL instead. It's a $150 app fee. You can still do all the things that you can under a 01 license but it's not considered a license to deal in firearms.
    Not strictly true. A type 07 manufacturer's license does allow dealing. If you look at
    section 478.41, it states:

    "However, it shall not be necessary for a license importer or a license manufacturer to
    also obtain a dealer's license to engage in the business on the license premises as a
    dealer in the same type of firearms authorized by the license to be imported or
    manufactured."


    A type 07 license is a license to allow the manufacture "Of firearms other than destructive
    devices" which is pretty much anything that isn't a class III weapon or device. This means
    a type 07 license can deal anything that comes under the heading of firearms other
    than destructive devices
    .

    A little clarification in the fees is necessary too. The $200 is for the first three
    year period the license is issued. After which, it becomes $90 for each subsequent three
    year period. The manufacturer's license is always $150 for any three year period.

    Also, there are additional paperwork filings required for manufacturers above and beyond
    the regular "bound book" required for dealers. These are not bad but are an additional
    hassle to contend with.

    Good Luck!
    -Blue Chips-
    Webb

  16. #16
    pgfaini's Avatar
    pgfaini is offline Cast Iron
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    Jake,
    One thing you should keep in mind. If your shop is in your home, let's say in the basement, the ATF can search your home(not just the basement) any time without a warrent. Even keeping the shop area locked off from the living area won't prevent this.
    Paul

  17. #17
    hagar's Avatar
    hagar is offline Aluminum
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    The other requirements for a manufacturer's license is filing a report the first part of every year stating how many and what kind of firearms were manufactured. This has to be filed even if there is no production for the year. It is only a one page report so it doesn't amount to much. Usually it only takes me about twenty minutes for the paper work.

    There has been one change to manufacturers requirements in the last year or two that is quite helpful. Now you can manufacture up to (50) firearms per year without paying excise tax on them.

    If you pay the SOT yearly you can also deal in class 3 firearms and have the ability to manufacture post 86 samples and register them.

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