Thread: "Gunsmithing" lathes

If I had to pick one, right now, drop dead decision and not look back. It would be an 0509G Griz. Flame suit on. They probably have 1 in stock so don't take the one I am about to order : ) All good stuff. Happy chip making

Originally Posted by keydiverfla

If I had to pick one, right now, drop dead decision and not look back. It would be an 0509G Griz. Flame suit on. They probably have 1 in stock so don't take the one I am about to order : ) All good stuff. Happy chip making

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I just looked up the G0509 for kicks (I'm looking for an G0709 14x40) and found this:

"Please note that this item is discontinued and no longer available for sale."

Sorry man... :-(

When I was going to school they were in the process of replacing their Nardini lathes with new Sharp lathes. I don't know where they are made but they very well made for the money. I think they were around 10k. for a 14/40 model. I ended up buying one of the used Nardinis.

Originally Posted by rinn69

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I just looked up the G0509 for kicks (I'm looking for an G0709 14x40) and found this:

"Please note that this item is discontinued and no longer available for sale."

Sorry man... :-(

I hold you fully responsible for this : )

Originally Posted by rinn69

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I just looked up the G0509 for kicks (I'm looking for an G0709 14x40) and found this:

"Please note that this item is discontinued and no longer available for sale."

Sorry man... :-(

You're right, the g0509 is discontinued. BUT......the G0509G is still available. Last I talked to them, this is the only gunsmith lathe of the three they carry that is in stock. The other two are on back order with a waiting list.

For gunsmithing, I would really give some consideration to this lathe if I didn't already have the G0509G.

http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM1340T.html


..........Jeff

Originally Posted by Jeff Walker

You're right, the g0509 is discontinued. BUT......the G0509G is still available. Last I talked to them, this is the only gunsmith lathe of the three they carry that is in stock. The other two are on back order with a waiting list.

For gunsmithing, I would really give some consideration to this lathe if I didn't already have the G0509G.

PM1340T Metal Lathe


.........Jeff

OK, I’ll bite, why? Those little Jet/Birmingham/Harbor Freight/ adnausium lathes are one of the biggest rip offs and most problematic machines out there. They make the little Enco 12X36 lathes look like bargains. Here’s a little home shop lathe that went up recently and sold high, but ¼ the price of the little turd you are looking at:
NICE!! DELTA-ROCKWELL 14" x 42" METAL CUTTING LATHE - #25-210 | eBay

Machines like this are sold all around the country and this outfit goes thru several a month. Earl.

how many hours do you have on the pm lathes to know that it's the most problematic machine out there? what exactly are the problems?

when you buy that used delta-rockwell, what kind of after-sale customer service do you get? warranty? what happens when you pay to crate and ship that used machine across the country because it had a nice paint job in the ebay pictures and when it arrives you find out that the bed and/or lead screw is worn beyond what you find acceptable? or you find out what someone's idea of "good condition" is not the same as your idea of "good condition"?

How could it be bad? After all someone spent a day or two with the Scotchbrite wheel on the ways, chuck, faceplate, etc.

I looked at a used Clausing about a year ago listed as great shape. The guy had been cutting and welding drive shafts over the bed with an arch welder. But he cleaned it up with his little hand held belt sander. I didn't say a word just got back in my truck and made the 150 mile trip back home. Probably worth every bit of the $6,000 he was asking. Well to him anyway.

Originally Posted by speerchucker30x3

I looked at a used Clausing about a year ago listed as great shape. The guy had been cutting and welding drive shafts over the bed with an arch welder. But he cleaned it up with his little hand held belt sander. I didn't say a word just got back in my truck and made the 150 mile trip back home. Probably worth every bit of the $6,000 he was asking. Well to him anyway.

Ain't that the truth. I've seen this type of thing at machinery dealers as well - supposedly cherry equipment that, when seen in person, makes one question the competence, honesty (or both) of those selling it.

After several years of looking at machines, I've reached a more charitable conclusion: Most people selling machine tools wouldn't know a machine in "excellent condition" if you dropped it on them. They're just plain ignorant.

When I see a machine for sale, I try to look at them as often as possible; hey, you never know if you're going to spot the nugget in the stud pile. Most of the time, I come away empty-handed and chuckling about the price, description, or both. Every now and again, tho, I find something worth my time, sometimes at a rather compelling price. This happens rarely enough that when it does, it brightens my outlook on life for months afterwards...

The people who keep harping on buying only "used American iron" obviously live in places where the distances are close, the iron is abundant and they have unlimited time in which to look for something with which to start or run a business.

Originally Posted by speerchucker30x3

There is no point in spending 4 years in university to be a panty lacier if panty lacing only pays $20,000 per year.

That depends on who's wearing the panties...

Originally Posted by wyop

Ain't that the truth. I've seen this type of thing at machinery dealers as well - supposedly cherry equipment that, when seen in person, makes one question the competence, honesty (or both) of those selling it.

After several years of looking at machines, I've reached a more charitable conclusion: Most people selling machine tools wouldn't know a machine in "excellent condition" if you dropped it on them. They're just plain ignorant.

When I see a machine for sale, I try to look at them as often as possible; hey, you never know if you're going to spot the nugget in the stud pile. Most of the time, I come away empty-handed and chuckling about the price, description, or both. Every now and again, tho, I find something worth my time, sometimes at a rather compelling price. This happens rarely enough that when it does, it brightens my outlook on life for months afterwards...

The people who keep harping on buying only "used American iron" obviously live in places where the distances are close, the iron is abundant and they have unlimited time in which to look for something with which to start or run a business.

^^^This is the exact reason why I would be at a HUGE disadvantage when trying to buy a used machine...

Originally Posted by bigearl67

OK, I’ll bite, why? Those little Jet/Birmingham/Harbor Freight/ adnausium lathes are one of the biggest rip offs and most problematic machines out there. They make the little Enco 12X36 lathes look like bargains. Here’s a little home shop lathe that went up recently and sold high, but ¼ the price of the little turd you are looking at:
NICE!! DELTA-ROCKWELL 14" x 42" METAL CUTTING LATHE - #25-210 | eBay

Machines like this are sold all around the country and this outfit goes thru several a month. Earl.

Pretty harsh there Earl, I would agree with you about the pm1340, but I disagree with you on the pm1340T....which is the one I posted the link to ( at least it is on my computer ). I thought that one is a decent lathe and it has a good headstock length and spindle bore for gunsmithing. But assuming you are someone who actually knows what he's talking about, note that I have yet to actually get my hands on one of these, please give specifics on why THIS lathe is junk. Rinn69, if I have given you this suggestion and have led you astray, I apologize...but let's see what Earl comes up with.

As far as old American iron goes...MY experience tells me to run as far and fast as I can from it. The good ones never come up for sale, they get gobbled up by someone who already knew about them, and the worn out stuff is what can be found. Your experience may differ, but that is my experience.

.....Jeff

No personal experience with anything PM badged, just read a bit about all the issues they have with the plastic gearing, unobtainable parts and poor customer service when Birmingham was selling them. I also don’t have any experience with Yugo’s, but I know enough to understand that they aren’t a Cadillac. Four years ago I filled out an application for a teaching position and listed the amount of time I spent on each type of machine. I estimated 7500 hours on lathes. I was being conservative. Most of this time was spent before You-tube made everyone an instant authority.

I understand there is a lot of distain for American machinery in this forum. Any time this subject is brought up there are several guys (all who use, or want to use, Asian machines) that want to jump up and down describing horror stories to justify their buy. Not sure how many of these stories were obtained while typing at the keyboard but I suppose an awful lot were. I get the same type of stories about Mausers, guys hearing “experts” tell them that they’re unsafe to build a rifle on because they’re all old and worn out.
I think the original poster had the most honest approach, he used his machine for a year and gave his opinion. I sure do appreciate the time he spent as it gave me an idea of the lathe. I know this lathe a little as I have the same lathe, only 14x40 and badged Acer, where I teach. I can take any student and have them turning to .0015 on it in little time and do so fairly regularly. I can do the same on the LeBlond’s we have and I’m sure I could do the same on that little Rockwell I posted the link too.
Earl.

A lathe, is a car, is a plane, is a toaster. They are all machines. They all wear out. They can all be rebuilt. As a rule the less they cost at birth, the faster they wear out. The older they get, the harder it becomes to get parts for them and the more expensive the parts become. What you will own is based on what you can spend. You have to set a budget and look at all the angles. If you can afford and justify a brand new Guildmeister you buy it. If you can afford to rebuild an old Colchester you do it. If you can't afford that you buy something that speaks Mandarin or Cantonese. Baring that, you buy an old wreaked Atlas and make the best of things. Personally, I'd rather own a nice pretty CNC Guildmeister but I can't afford it and nor would it ever pay for itself. So arguing about what is better is pointless for me because the best, the better and the pretty decent is out of my reach. Its been my experience that most people will argue that whatever they have, is the best, till their dieing breath, just so they don't feel bad about not being able to afford something better. LMAO ROFF

Jeff,
You posted while I was typing but I hope I answered your question. Search this site under “Birmingham lathe” and I’m sure you will see the little Birmingham badged machines (now PM badged). Professional really doesn’t take this class of lathe seriously for several reasons. Quality work is best done with quality machinery and quality skills. No machine will make up for inexperience. On one of my personal lathes last September I turned 70 billed hours to a client on several shafts. I kept tol. To within .001 while taking a heavy cut and finishing cut on a machine whose crossfeed screw is about as bad as I have ever seen. I’ve got the lead screw stock on hand and will bring it back to factory specs when I find time, just have been too busy using the machine to make a living. Earl.


This is where I teach, every couple years they auction off the machinery (tax purposes) and I will be picking up a LeBlond or two for well under half of what the PM is listed for.

My only experience with PM was thery never got back to me to buy a new machine. Hence my prior post of Griz. Like Upchucker said, machines are like cars, etc. Good, Bad, Taiwan, Chinese, American. I prefer to buy new so I know I have a junk Taiwan and go from there versus good ol' amercican iron and find the problems out. PM gets a down thumbs from me as customer service there is poor. Flame suit back on

I meant Speerchucker : )

Originally Posted by bigearl67

I understand there is a lot of distain for American machinery in this forum. Any time this subject is brought up there are several guys (all who use, or want to use, Asian machines) that want to jump up and down describing horror stories to justify their buy. Not sure how many of these stories were obtained while typing at the keyboard but I suppose an awful lot were. I get the same type of stories about Mausers, guys hearing “experts” tell them that they’re unsafe to build a rifle on because they’re all old and worn out.

I think the original poster had the most honest approach, he used his machine for a year and gave his opinion. I sure do appreciate the time he spent as it gave me an idea of the lathe. I know this lathe a little as I have the same lathe, only 14x40 and badged Acer, where I teach. I can take any student and have them turning to .0015 on it in little time and do so fairly regularly. I can do the same on the LeBlond’s we have and I’m sure I could do the same on that little Rockwell I posted the link too.
Earl.

I certainly don't "disdain" American machines. If they're in proper working order and they haven't been monkey-hammered by idiots, most are an excellent piece to own and use. I've worked with/on Colchesters, Clausings, South Bends (wildly over-rated, IMO), Cincy's, Monarchs (my personal fave), Summit (don't care for them at all), LeBlonde (OK, but they're no Monarch), Cazeneuve (very, very nice - the position of the Z-axis crank on the apron is annoying tho), Sharp (I ended up buying one, and it is OK. Just OK.) and Hardinge (for small stuff, the HLV-H is nearly impossible to beat, IMO). In short, I'm not a "lathe snob." If it turns, it is safe to operate and I can figure it out without wrecking something, I'll use it. That doesn't mean that I have to *like* it after I'm done using it, tho.

Sadly, tho, the population of properly-cared for US-made machines is dwindling. There are no more being made, and in areas of the country (eg, where I'm at, Wyoming), small (< 16" swing) lathes that are a) made in the US, b) in reasonable shape and c) available for sale are as rare as hen's teeth. If I want to even get just consumable tooling or instruments "right now," ie, today, it is a two-hour drive either up to Billings or down to Casper. As a result, I order almost all tooling and instruments in.

I've driven as far as 500 miles in a thirsty one-ton pickup to go look at a machine... only to discover that the dealer who uses the term "excellent condition" has a problem with his eyesight.... or I don't think those words mean what he thinks they mean. When I go to see a machine, I've already inquired as to what form of payment is acceptable and I will have that in my pocket when I arrive. In short, when I go to see machines, I'm ready to buy if the machine is as represented to me on the phone or in email.

Due to misrepresentation and ignorance on the part of many machine owners or dealers, money for machines rarely leaves my pocket. I often do find deals on tooling, workholding, instruments, etc, so it usually isn't a completely wasted trip.


At some point, a guy who wants to run a business that needs machines has to throw his hands up in the air and buy a machine.

If anything ever happened where I was forced to own only one lathe I sure would make it’s a good one. Most gunsmiths I know only have one lathe because of the little use and more need for other stuff.
Here is the best way I know to describe the difference with the new imports. These two lathes have basically all the same parts except one is a flimsy China pos good for basically the home shop and even then not for best quality work. The other is a sound “happy medium” made well and will last a life time of use doing quality work. They are priced within 10% of each other from the same importer. I have no experience with the quality lathe but some good friends of mine sell this line and I have personally looked both over. If I wanted a new lathe I would consider one of these better quality machines.
Earl

Pos china:
KLS-1340A - Kent USA Industrial

Quality Taiwanese:

TRL 1340 Lathe