Gunsmithing in the uk???

Is anyone here based in the uk? Keep getting approached by legal gun owners about making parts, can't stress enough not making modifications to guns, or even having the guns come to me, but simple springs, pins, odd screws - odd bolts etc. Even been serious talk of bullet moulds for black powder shooters. There is a clear demand for the bits, so far due to the legal uncertainties i have passed on it all, but i keep getting asked and hence really want to find out if its possible with out jumping through a crazy amount of red tape?

Searching online does not seam to get far, reading our fire arms law seams to leave plenty of gaps, various newer as yet unpassed laws seam to make me possibly even face multiple years in prison for just googling the legalities of these things - just looking at cross sectional views of fire arms and also having the machining capabilities of making them. 3d printing guns seams to have our politicians running scared brining in laws that damn near anyone with more machining capability than a file a cordless drill and screw driver could be classed as falling fowl off. Ever more common everyday chemicals are looking like there going to end up banned and for some one that uses acetone to clean stuff and anodizes small bits with sulphuric acid im no doubt on watch lists already.

Hence is there anyone here that knows if someone who is already set-up to do machining as part of there everyday business can make parts (other than pressure bearing bits i am certain are not legal to make) that can be used on firearms here in the uk?

I sold a machine to a fella who did specialist work on firearms and other stuff for the MOD and police etc ,not walk ins ,this was just a home shop type setup, it had to be extremely well secured and obviously lots of legislation ,the chap had previously worked for a big company who did the same work in a small department as part of a much bigger organisation .

The big company got out of this business and the fella I new took it over (all legit and above board)he did it for a while then emigrated to the States ,last time I heard he was doing OK ,I think that tale says it all.

I have had people wanting stuff done in the past as well ,always avoided it like the plague.

adama said:

Ever more common everyday chemicals are looking like there going to end up banned and for some one that uses acetone to clean stuff and anodizes small bits with sulphuric acid im no doubt on watch lists already.

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Amber Rudd announced a law just two days ago banning people under 18 from buying acids ... and right too.

As for gun smithing ... only last week had an offer of a HLV-H modified long bed used for rifle barrels. The seller; a one man band business was being constantly hounded by the authorities.

Do you really need to go down this road to make money ... I don't think so and IMHO it's not worth the hassel.

Just my two pennies worth

John

^ thats just it this work is not about barrels bolts or any other pressure bearing bits, ergo from what i can find out its not got the agro that kinda work has attached to it so long as at no point do i ever have the fire arms here or in my possession and i really don't want to work on thoes. This is far more make odd special fastenings and such which im already geared up for do to the other parts i make for things with wheels! Problem is these are bits that go on guns?

EGO makeing studs for a old bike engine, totally legal, supply hundreds a year, can i make a small stud though and legally sell it knowing its for a firearm? Same with small screws and similar, im really striking out trying to find out were the law lays. I know for certain barrels and repair work is illegal with out the correct paper work, holding others fire arms is illegal etc, but is modifying scope mounts and such also illegal? I have gone this far being a law abiding person, and its really not worth becoming a criminal over now!

Its not so much go down this road to make money, but the prices these potential customers are paying "gunsmiths" is bonkers for the parts there getting which are often nothing more than strange small shouldered slotted head screws or the simple machining there having done in the case of the scope mount. Odd screws to attach slings etc. There seams to be a real opportunity here and a market fresh for the picking if i can just safely work out what is and is not legal to go after work wise. Things like the bullet moulds look like there legal to own with out a fire arms certificate, hell people are selling them on flea bay hence does that also make them legal to make? Have several requests for strange calibres. If this turns out to be a legal mind field, then hell yeah im not going there, but when your getting asked multiple times a week comes a point you need to look into it more and that's what im trying to do just getting no were. As i want to keep it legal and i think there’s some real potential here making and selling low qty odd ball fastenings is border line one of my specialities.

See despite the UK's gun laws there seams to be one hell of a lot of shooters out - around here of everything from large calibre rifles on down to black powder muzzle loading pistols clubs. Hence if i can find my way through the legal minefield i think im looking at a potential of several extra £k a year doing this stuff. Problem is unlike in Texas were everyone open carries has there guns on the wall, here in the uk its more or less forced underground, clubs are not allowed open days, there not allowed to even have a public presence and are very much a invite from existing member and pass a background check from the bill before your even allowed a look around. Really want to know what options - can offer manufacturing wise i have before i meet these possible customers.

You all have some strange laws over there be careful. One of my customers in the UK had some stories. He has several rifles and hand guns, said he can load them all up and go to the range legally, but he can not be caught with a single hollow point bullet with out getting into serious trouble.

Lived here in Texas most of my life and the only people doing open carry of hand guns were a couple of idiots at some protest on TV. Also seen a couple of ranchers out doing fencing work in the country. Back when I was kid most ranchers had gun racks in the back window of their pickups with one or 2 old rifles or shotguns. Have not seen that since the 70s, I think it still would be legal, but the ranchers would have their guns stolen even if the guns are old and beat up.

I take it you guys in the UK don't want me to email you my
solidworks AR 15 or AR 10 lower models
not going to happen

really you would probably need to consult a solicitor
probably easier for them to source repair parts from this side of the pond.

^ some of them do source from the USA but our import charges and custom clearance is supposedly a lot of agro as soon as they see its from a American fire arms dealer.

As to hollow points, more so expanding ammunition is a special option on a fire arms certificate here and is only granted to hunters. Some of the HMR rounds with the polymer tips seam to get around it, but like a lot of things its grey areas. But i do know you very much won't get that on your ticket for use at any range.

Already tried asking a solicitor "who shoots" about this and got the damn near std reply it can be a lot of work and because i am not, can not, nor do i want to be a registered fire arms dealer (some one who sells guns, and you have to have regular gun sales to be one) I had better know the exact details so i don't cross the line of the law. He also said so long as i stay away from the controlled items under the fire arms act, ie pressure parts im theoretically outside the firearms laws ergo its a free for all but there was not much in the way of case law to support that. Or laws saying that.

My next stop is going to be talking to the local police fire arms department who issue the local gun licenses, see what they have to say.

Spose i was kinda hopeing this would be like traffic law - a speed sign, stay under it your a legal law abiding individual, go over your a criminal, just did not expect it to be this hard to find out were the line lays.

adama said:

...My next stop is going to be talking to the local police fire arms department who issue the local gun licenses, see what they have to say...

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I was going to suggest this as the logical next step, but you're ahead of me!

George

no such luck the anti gun crowd likes it to be a bit ambiguous

Tell me about it, but then the whole of british law seams to be that way, best info i have found so far,

component parts". R v Clarke (F), 82 Cr App R 308, CA states that the component part of a prohibited weapon is itself a prohibited weapon. Although there is no statutory definition, the Home Office Guidance to the Police at paragraph 13.70 states the following: R v Ashton, CA, 1 February 2007 seems to suggest that any part that stops the weapon functioning as it was designed would be a component part:

Jersey John said:

Amber Rudd announced a law just two days ago banning people under 18 from buying acids ... and right too.

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Really? That's about the stupidest thing I've heard recently. As if there's no way for a teen to get hold of acid without buying it over the counter.
So at 17 you can buy a 125cc motorbike but if you need a battery (that comes with an acid pack which you have to pour into it) are you now not allowed to purchase that or what?

sable said:

I have had people wanting stuff done in the past as well ,always avoided it like the plague.

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I know several gunsmiths here in the US who did gun work as a sideline (in California), who have given up, one I know was asked to do some work that was illegal on a firearm, refused, and as soon as the person left, shut down his shop, he concluded it was too risky to his freedom/bank acct etc to carry on. he still works on his own firearms, but not anybody else's.

I'm amazed anybody in the UK would even consider any firearm work.

I won't let anybody do any AR15 work on my BP's, not going to take the risk. I have enough wife/irs/edd/neighbour problems as it is.

^ Thats kinda just it, im not letting anyone do any firearm work here, im not going to be doing any firearm work here either, i just want to find out if i can make the non fire arm bits of a firearm. This is not about making guns, making receivers, automatic firing conversions or other crap which is illegal here unless you have the magical home office approval to make military grade stuff.

IE some one brings me a mangled shouldered bolt out of say there old lotus, yep no probs, can make and sell them all day, hell i even make brake parts, it does not concern me and i have the data to show mine outperform the originals i was asked to reproduce. High risk projects - parts don't scare me. Now if someone brings me a small screw with a chewed up head can i make it if its going in - from there legally held gun? Thats my problem

FYI if someone wants something illegal there told to F off and the correct authorities would very much be informed, just like it was when i was a printer, some one asked can you make plates to print notes, technically back then yeah, theoretically we could but doing so would be illegal and hell no were not going to print you fake currency! were especially not going to print you fake currency and sell you a thousand fake £5 notes for the same cost of a box of full colour post cards!!! Why someone would feel the need to shut up shop the second they have that kinda request seams odd what was it he was really afraid of anyone finding there?

Over here if i went the registered firearms dealer root the police would - are free to spot check and have a legal requirement to do so, ergo if your above board what’s to fear? Just like currently they could go to any court, say they suspect me of illegal manufacture and get a search warrant then anyhow.

Currently the requests i have had for parts that i have not made, have not held - not kept here or agreed to make due to my confusion as to the legalities of making them seams enough work to justify some hoop jumping. The people giving me these requests are law abiding, they are telling me they believe i can legally do it, i need to confirm that. But over here its more than fair to say if i was to make them illegal parts they would more than likely be losing there FAC's too so its not like they don’t already have some serious skin in the game just asking me. There weapons should be being inspected by the plod at intervals too.

When people are offering to pay me good money for simple machined parts and i am in the business of already making similar parts for other sectors its kinda dumb to try to not try and waid into the swap a little and see weather its mealy toe dripping wet or something thats going to drown yahh! Im lucky enough to have a club member as a friend who wants to take me to one of there guest open days, thats one of the few legal ways a non certificate holder such as my self can get to see handle and with a bit of luck maybe shoot a few of the club guns. FYI i do like target shooting, have done so since being a kid (air pistol and air rifle) but getting into the small bore rifle shooting clubs is incredibly hard around here have tried more than a few times and spaces are very very limited - just don't come up.

I think one of the issues here is if you as a machinist know what you are making ,if a fella sent you an RFQ with a drawing of a shoulder screw ,as long as it doesn't say that it is for a forearm I am pretty certain you are fine ,if you were to sell the same screw to fit a particular gun ( as you probably would with a car or bike part)then in the hot water you are.

The problem would come when you suddenly find yourself with a queue forming at your door when you become known as the guy who can supply cheap parts for guns "as long as no one actually mentions the word gun" nudge nudge ,wink wink. Next thing you know your PM posts are coming from the big house.

I found this after a quick search. One paragraph in particular stands out.

"Don’t forget, if you start working on a friend’s gun, even if you are not getting paid, you are required to obtain a Registered Firearms Dealer Certificate from your local Police. You will need to present them with a business plan of your intentions, upgrade your security and insurance, all of which can cost a small fortune."

Greenwood Gunsmiths - How to become a gunsmith?

Sounds as if it is not a trivial matter, even for trivial repairs.

adama said:

Why someone would feel the need to shut up shop the second they have that kinda request seams odd what was it he was really afraid of anyone finding there?

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The penealties can be harsh apparently, upto and including loosing your freedom, house etc. i think as a part time gunsmith he didn't feel like taking risks. Not unrealistic to assume the potential customer could have been an ATF informant. Apparently the ATF can be unpredicatble in how they persue people. Get a very aggresive ATF agent and your in for the ride of a lifetime. I've been on the wrong side of the IRS and that was a sobering experience, ATF would be 100x worse.

Peter. said:

Really? That's about the stupidest thing I've heard recently. As if there's no way for a teen to get hold of acid without buying it over the counter.
So at 17 you can buy a 125cc motorbike but if you need a battery (that comes with an acid pack which you have to pour into it) are you now not allowed to purchase that or what?

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Under 18s will be banned from buying acid - Amber Rudd announces

John

Yes but making the bits i would - am interest in im not nore ever will be working on there gun, just as in the same way going to the garage and buying a litre of oil does not mean the garage is working on your car. or if you then use that oil to lube your gun are they working on your gun. Im certain the plod are not perusing garages for selling oils that may get used on fire arms. Just want to be certain there not going to be perusing me for selling bolts that are being used on them! Bullet moulds so long as they are not of a expanding design also seam to be a free for all - not a restricted item, just struggling to find out if i can own said item with out a licence does that mean i am also free to make and sell them????

Yes making illegal gun parts over here and your looking at 5 years minimum. Thats why i need to be absolutely clear with what i will - will not do and hence why im trying to find out what i can and can not do, before i even meet more of these people. Thats what’s proving hard. Seriously hard and seriously deeply buried in the rules.

I absolutely will not and have turned down work before when some one is being cagey about what its for 99% of the time these customers are best avoided for reasons far greater than what ever it is they want doing. Here in the uk anyone can record a conversation and if need be i can very much prove what was said. If i don't know what it is and were its going im not touching it so far that rule has worked well - kept me the right side of the law.

Sable, from what i understand here in the uk now, if some one sent you a drawing for any fire arm part and your a manufacturer with capabilities to make it your potentially in serious hot water at that point, forget making it or not or if you know what its for. I don't think making a part to print is a defence any more. Yets face it, that approach is on a par with asking your gardening granddad to grow this funny smelling spiky leafed plant in the greenhouse with his tomatoes!

Jersey John said:

Under 18s will be banned from buying acid - Amber Rudd announces

John

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OT yes, Thats not the bit that scares me, its the bit about viewing terrorist propaganda and what that could be construed as, freedom of speech is getting seriously strained over here. News stories use to be more freely reported, now theres starting to feel like theres a real bias and banning anyone from trying to hear the other sides views is hardly the kinda freedom democracy is built on. They are very much trying to remove the freedoms the internet have given us. Look at the Spanish vote, people putting marks on paper and a EU country so scared there using force to stop it, just why were the Spanish so afraid of letting a vote go ahead once it had already been decided it had no legal bearing?

Our government is the ones who get to decide who the terrorists are, if the ruling party decided the opposition were terrorists, ergo democracy folds instantly in my country, i really don't like it when potentially dangerous freedoms are removed to be replaced with laws that give current rulers even greater distorting powers.

The restrictions and removals of freedoms is not why my grandparents went to war and protected this country from the Germans! The whole reason we have a political government not a outright monarchy was to have these freedoms and have this country ruled by its people not a nutty dictator. This kinda stuff looking back historically never ends well no ruling body has ever in history mantained that position for long via force and control alone.

adama said:

Sable, from what i understand here in the uk now, if some one sent you a drawing for any fire arm part and your a manufacturer with capabilities to make it your potentially in serious hot water at that point, forget making it or not or if you know what its for. I don't think making a part to print is a defence any more.

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Sounds like you answered your own question. There is way too much legal bullshit involved for making a few quid on a screw.