Hypothetical Questions for Gun Manufacturing

I am a business student and would like to one day either own a medium to large firearm manufacturing firm or become an upper level manager for a large firearm manufacturer. More on to the point in one of my classes I have to research the pros and cons of three CNC machines that could be used to design, manufacture, and prototype firearms. I'm mainly thinking like AR-type prototyping (ACR advancements, AR-10, AR-15, piston designs, direct impingement designs, and just moderate advancements on current firearm styles) and producing polymer framed handguns in 10mm, 9mm, .357-SIG, .45-ACP, and .22 LR training pieces. Additionally, the machines should have the capability to rough cut all items to be custom matched and fitted on personal, special edition, and customized weapons. I would also like machines capable of machining "semi-custom" and rough cut 1911 frames and slides. Remember, this is a hypothetical, so money isn't a HUGE object, but flexibility is extremely important as I don't want to have to "recommend" 3 machines for rifles, 3 machines for pistols, and still have to retain 15 hand milling stations.

The background on this hypothetical company is that they produce mid to high end products to be used by military, police, civilians, and contractors. The company will retain 5 of the 25 milling stations for custom work and will still have about 30 gunsmiths to work on custom pieces, fitment, assembly, and repair. The goal is to replace the 20 oldest milling stations with up to 10 brand new five axis(?) CNC machines that can speed up output and reduce waste (increasing profitability).

Personally, I am looking at Okuma, Toyoda, and Tormach right now, but I would like feedback from people who have more knowledge of the process and necessary abilities.

Advice, help, ideas. Anything is welcome.

What are you smoking, some of that good legal shit? You want to get in to the most saturated market in history. You think that you already know how many machines and what kind. Then you add that some of them would manual machines like 100 years ago and you consider Tormach as an industrial machine.

Looooong way to go. Get your hands dirty and NOT in a gunsmith's shop. You are talking manufacturing here. It ain't a hobby and you have a lot to learn.

According to some numbers you put out there, you are already larger than the plant I work in. Remington doesnt have 30 smiths in custom shop and arms service combined.

By the way, we just bought 30 Hardinge, 20 Mori/DMG mills, and some more Okuma LT lathes. Jus sayin. Boying a CNC and upgrading isnt just plug and play.

A business plan would be a good start.

Its one thing to make 100 a year.
Its another to make 100 a week.

Handmade guns require a lathe and files, no more.
After that, its all about productivity vs costs vs quality.

You cannot look at machines separately from volumes. Cannot be done. Profitably, that is.
Weather you make guns or sewing machines is immaterial.

About the only thing defined is size(about 1m workpiece length, and under 10 kg on finished piece and less than 10 cm in diameter) and material (steels).

For prototypes, you could buy the best - but certainly could lose money on them.
Software is a huge issue. And it might cost more than a high end machine.
Or not.
Metrology likewise.
Or not.

You are talking about manufacturing industrially.
Here - costs vs results is the only criteria.

If it costs you 2000$ to make a 1000$ piece you wont last long.
Otoh..
The better/best 5 axis machines, at around 500k a pop, will certainly make any protoype you want.
If the 500k is available from current cashflow, you have solved your problem.

If you want to make prototypes, thats one thing.
And can afford the losses ie the machines.

A manufacturer I know well sold 100 machine to make licensed machine guns in vietnam.
The cnc kit was about 1/4 the value of the project.

Forget the machines for now.
Define production volumes, tolerances.
THEN look at machine specs.
Define elastics of your markeplace. The market size is likely limited, and wont grow. Exports are complex (legal issues). Etc.

The market is very elastic because of the shifts in political leanings from one election to the next. I'm assuming that my company would be about the size of Ruger or Springfield and thus maintain approximately 10% of the market share. Because of the elasticity, volume may be as low as 50,000 pieces per year and as high as 750,000 pieces the next (assuming the current growth is stable for the next ten years or so 750,000 pieces would be about 10%-15% of the market in the United States). Being able to shut down a machine is better on morale than laying off fifteen people and also retains the machine for work when the market demand increases. The volumes needed in my hypothetical would be the max outputs possible in a 8, 12, 16, and/or 24 hour periods depending on the demand, costs of operation, and the output available. These are the production parameters for the "purchasing" report that I have to write. Tolerances would be determined by gunsmiths and engineers. In essence, they higher end pieces would have tolerances just large enough for oil to lubricate the pieces and maintain funcionability in the weapon and likely final fitted by the proper smith for the job so an exact fitment with too little material milled off as large as .01" and with too much material milled off as .001" would be acceptable as a smith may manually remove .005" or more to ensure that the fit and finish is precise enough to be a "custom" gun and still large enough to be a piece that is carried in defense (or offense in the case of military, police, or contractors) and fire reliably with normal maintenance. The more mainstream/mass produced firearms would be something along the lines of .005" either direction to help eliminate the need to manually fit the weapon. If my tolerances seem too large, I welcome input on that as well. As I said, I don't have a degree in anything, much less manufacturing, mechanical engineering, or gunsmithing. Hell, I don't even know the time it would take a CNC machine to actually mill out a standard (think Glock, Springfield, and Smith and Wesson) slide.

The main issue at hand for this particular course is finding the right machine for the job. Whether I would be replacing two manual mills with one machine, five manual mills with two machines, or 20 manual mills with 10 machines is really pretty irrelevant. It was mainly the idea behind it. My first thought would be that one mill would be twice as efficient as two gunsmiths and that means one cnc machine would be twice as efficient as one manual mill or four gunsmiths. Thus, I would be cutting the manual labor force down with a high initial investment, but at an average sales volume of about $2.5b (250,000 pieces sold at an average of $850 nets a total sales volume of $2,125,000,000 per year)the investments would pay for themselves (and the costs of production including the labor, training, installation, transition, software, and software updates) within three years. If I'm wrong in my thinking, anyone who can tell me where is more than welcome to that as this is just a hypothetical, assuming the company is towards the top of their industry, expanding, growing, maintaining growth from the previous ten years for the next ten, and needing to upgrade equipment.

Also, I do understand that MANY parts in production firearms are Metal Injection Molded, but for some reason I thought that comparing CNC equipment would be more able to produce a quality purchase report and offer a less indepth look that is easier to understand for most people.

Every time you go to the keyboard you embarrass your self. It becomes more and more apparent that you are totally lost in any aspect of manufacturing. No one believes that you have an assignment to " research the pros and cons of three CNC machines that could be used to design, manufacture, and prototype firearms" unless you are in a specific gunsmithing school and I don't believe it even then. ANY 3 CNC machines could be used for that task. Would they be appropriate to he task? Who knows, we don't even know what the machines are. Are you asking what machines? Doesn't seem likely since you have no knowledge of manufacturing and have decided how many you need before you even know what you are going to make.
Can you give an example of a "metal injection molded" part in any quality firearm?

Ruger, Kimber, Springfield, Glock, Beretta, and pretty much EVERY manufacturer that produces quantity not just custom uses many MIM parts. Kimber has notoriously used hammers, triggers, internals. There's been too much controversy over this in the last few years as MIM parts are generally more than strong enough to handle the task at hand unless there's a flaw in the mold.

As for my lack of knowledge of manufacturing, if I hadn't made it clear enough in previous posts... I have NO background in manufacturing, engineering or any field in which I am currently and undergraduate student to pursue once I've progressed beyond the status of student. Obviously you have not seen my posts or your reading comprehension of them is too low for me to be clear in them. Is there any way I can be more clear about this? Or should I just dismiss myself from this forum, write a half-assed paper and be the person who gets to tell machinists what to do in your career in a couple years and just be oblivious (and obviously sour towards) them and their processes?

And to be honest midget, I don't give a damn what you think of my education, nor am I under any obligation to tell you what educational goals I am seeking. However, you clearly will not leave the post or offer any real advice given the information I've offered up without it. So here it goes. I am in college at community college in Colorado, I plan to transfer to DU or UCCS and receive a bachelor's degree in international business finance. I will then continue my education and either earn an MBA in marketing or management from DU or UW (Washington) OR I will pursue a degree in law (Juris Doctorate) at UW or Wyoming University. I am currently an initiating member in Phi Theta Kappa and carry a 3.6 GPA. Without any more antagonism I will kindly ask that you take this information and either choose to help me find the proper channels of research for my paper or leave me alone and allow me to decipher the other member's information and actually learn something.

Also, as for the assignment, it's a "purchasing" report that has to be written as it would be in business and include the same information (costs, upgrades, production, maintenance, etc.) that is necessary to make a large purchase within a company. It's for a class that's called Business Communications. In this class we are to learn how to properly and effectively communicate within a business environment. Now that you've gotten the information, and can hopefully understand what I've said about my background, you'll either be helpful or leave.

"I am looking at Okuma, Toyoda, and Tormach right now"

Now there is a set of machines that don't often get stood side by each and compared! This could be pretty good fun!

Can't find humor like this on the Comedy Channel!

Cheers
Trev

MIM is not the answer for all firearms parts..

MIM parts fail. S&W cylinder hands, Remington Nylon 66 (old school MIM) barrel retaining block. Many more..

On CERTAIN low stressed parts... It is fine, I do not consider a cylinder hand, low stressed.. The bean counters do... Quaility drops on a proven design...

A modern firearms mfg (of any size... from 1 employee up), should not even be considering a Tormach class machine, for ANY use in plant...

You want to play with big boys, start looking at the BIG injection molding machines needed, the stamping machines needed for steel inserts (needed to reinforce many polymer parts).

Stamping dies will be needed, and maintained...

The injection mold makers will want EDM's.

Barrelmaking is another bottleneck, more tooling... Special machines..

The MIM molds are not cheap, Sintering ovens will be needed..

Then the tool making department.. MANY special shaped cutting tools will need to be machined, heat treated, and ground to size. And resharpened and replaced constantly..

Grinders, measuring equip, a CMM or 2, QA.. Magnetic particle inspection, proof test, test range.

Software costs/licenses as mentioned before, will add up quick.

Now do not forget marking equipment, Barrels and receivers, will need markings, serial number tracking, book keeping..

Oh and a fully staffed legal dept, to keep up with the state and local firearms laws, which change every month..

Sure you can start up a new Co.. Finding financing (in todays non gun friendly world) will be the BIGGEST challange..

Then there is liability insurance... Got a field proven design, and track record to lean back on.. ???

Hi Zack,

I don't even know where to begin.
Step one: your marketing projections are totally out of whack. The last few years of gun sales should not be taken as any sort of indication of *anything*, so far as future planning goes. The only thing I can guarantee is that past trends will not continue in any predictable fashion.
Step two: no way your company gets to even 2% market saturation in under 5 years unless you're the second coming of J. Moses B.

If this is just a paper where you have to write something that's clear, nevermind if it makes any real-world sense, just go write it. Concentrate on the language, and making as much of a case for whichever machines you like. Your instructor won't know the difference. (Or care, really. I've graded assignments like that. What I was after was "did they make their point well?" not "was their point the one-true-answer".)

On the other hand, the way you wrote your original post sent up all sort of red flags for many of us. Looked a lot like someone trying to get 'stealth' information about how to set up a gun company.
If you've got someone you care about's money riding on this, you really, really need to stop and do a *lot* more research before you get anywhere near these questions. When you understand *why* nobody's taking your questions seriously, then you may be closing in on the point where you'll understand the answers. Or, you'll be getting to the point where you can answer them yourself.

Best of luck,
Brian

You have had some good advice - although not about what you wanted.

The machine brands and models are irrelevant, unless joined to specific requirements.
A good complex mill turn lathe will make any part in a firearm. Mazak Integrex. Anything else similar.

The COST to make a part with one, may be 10x or 100x another manufacturing option.
It is quite cheap to make qty 300.000 of one part (under 1 kg, in steel).
It often approaches the materials cost around 300.000 parts per year.
Say 2-3-4€/kg.
If the machine costs, say, 300.000, and has a lifetime of 5 years, unit cost per piece for machine was 0.20.
If the assy has 100 pieces, then it has a cost of manufacture of about 20.

For manufacturing a mass-produced item, it might even make sense to make bins of stuff, and stock them.
Grin.

Otoh..
A single machine may replace 100 or more "smiths".
The cost of that machine may be 100k, 1M, or 10M.
The cost of the line may then be 2x or 3x or 5x the machine cost. Better plan on the higher end, unless you have specifics.

It depends, you see.

Robots, in-process gaging, etc. are cheap in quantity, if you do it.
Not so much, if you have to order it from someone used to charging the auto industry.

If you plan to be in charge of something like this, these are the types of things I think You should be getting familiar with.

Its not hard to make a single line to make metal parts to high quality tolerances.
Even many, with a single robot feeding say 4 (or more) machines.
BUT .. it WILL NOT be economical compared to someone who does it with mass production techniques.

The details matter. More than 100% of end piece costs variance.

Hi Zach,
As someone with over 20 years in manufacturing, I understand a thing or two.
The first, and most concerning, is you reliance on your degrees to "teach you how to work"
Yes, I have a degree. 3.985 GPA, thank you! So let's not get into a pissing match over numbers, I'm not here to debate that. Knowledge, ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE, comes from doing. Get your degree, understand the written side of things, but by all means go get yourself a ground floor job at a manufacturing facility. Learn how it works from all aspects. Then, and only then, do you have a realistic shot at being a productive, profitable shop owner.
As to the paper... Tell the prof you went with a Haas horizontal mill, and a Haas vertical with 5th axis attachment. You can find all the info and pricing on line. (And it would actually do the job, unlike the tormach)
We don't need to debate that there are better machines, your profs have not been machinists, so they are looking for your articulation in the paper, they have no idea about the equipment. We know this because you were allowed to lump the tormach garage toy in with Okuma production equipment.
Seriously, get a job in the field.

Zack Lujan said:

As for my lack of knowledge of manufacturing, if I hadn't made it clear enough in previous posts... I have NO background in manufacturing.

Click to expand...

That's about the clearest picture you paint.

For all that gave even remotely good information, hanermo, marty, alberic, and even metal master, thanks. For the rest of you... no help, insults, and even accusations, whatever, I'll take your advice, figure it out on my own and produce a shit paper, maintain no idea of what I'm actually talking about, and resent machinists. By the way, the little bit of help I did get (Tormach being a garage machine, not a production machine, five-axis being more able to cope with the demands of producing just about anything on a firearm, and that one machine may be able to meet the output of, say, 10-20-100 smiths) is more of what I was looking for. What speeds, abilities, software trainability. That sort of thing. Clearly, the word "hypothetical" still is unclear for many people. So, as a definition in case you need to know it in the future, Hypothetical means make-believe, pretend, a possible outcome to a certain situation (in my case my life), even if the probability of such an outcome is beyond the reaches of normal statistical charts. Or, a more concrete definition base is this:

hy·po·thet·i·cal
ˌhīpəˈTHetikəl/Submit
adjective
adjective: hypothetical
1.
of, based on, or serving as a hypothesis.
"that option is merely hypothetical at this juncture"
supposed but not necessarily real or true.
"the hypothetical tenth planet"
synonyms: theoretical, speculative, conjectured, conjectural, notional, suppositional, supposed, putative, assumed; More
antonyms: actual
LOGIC
denoting or containing a proposition of the logical form if p then q.
noun
noun: hypothetical; plural noun: hypotheticals
1.
a hypothetical proposition or statement.
"Finn talked in hypotheticals, tossing what-if scenarios to Rosen"

Color, boldness, italics, and size added for emphasis. Nevertheless, as I said, I will halfass it and just remain oblivious, it honestly doesn't matter to me at this point.

As far as the members of this forum are concerned open ended questions are the result of not doing your homework about where you are and what your asking not to mention your retort. Learn before you burn we can smell the smoke coming out your ears. Kinda fun actually.

The question, simply put:
" Also, as for the assignment, it's a "purchasing" report that has to be written as it would be in business and include the same information (costs, upgrades, production, maintenance, etc.) that is necessary to make a large purchase within a company. It's for a class that's called Business Communications. In this class we are to learn how to properly and effectively communicate within a business environment."

With the specific information you gave, no-one can realistically attempt to answer your question. You would need to know thousands of things about the existing process/machines, and potential new machines/products.
So, my suggestion is to take a parameter or two of CNC machines like MRR(material removal rate, if you can find it), or feed speeds, maybe motor horsepower... Show how new machines have more/better, but cost more,
and use that as the basis for your paper. There is no purpose in trying to make it more realistic than that, if the goal is to learn "how" to make a purchasing report. Obviously , a real purchasing report(I have done them) has to have correct
numbers behind it.

Also, you are trying to wrap your mind around too big of a thing. Better to try to understand an extremely simple, small business, making a few hundred widgets a week with one machine. There is a lot that goes into
that, as all the small business owners on here can attest. Everything else flows from that. Working in a small business, would give you insights you can't get in school.

As to the atitudinal weirdnesses in prior comments, um... eh.. hmm. Your question was poorly phrased, and some people like to make themselves feel big at the expense of others. They like to goad, and are
not worth losing your cool over.

regards,
Jon P.

To everyone I may have insulted with prior comments I do apologize. The internet is an easy place to allow oneself to vent, lose control, or otherwise be a dick. I was a dick. I was trying to be as cordial (to at least some degree), but it was very obvious what I was trying to do. The culmination of the last few weeks came to a boil when tdmidget said things I perceived to insult my intelligence, purpose, and goals. I understand that when dealing with things that can be used to commit crimes, people have to protect themselves and ensure that they keep their noses clean in the eyes of the law. I further understand that my question was vague which could lead to some confusing vagueness for a lack of a starting point with vagueness for the sake of finding out information for an activity other than advertised. Once again, I apologize. I snapped because of the other issues in my life at the moment and not really for any concrete reason here. And again, I do apologize.

My original post was vague because I was lost. I had some basic information, but no real jumping off point to begin my research. As a result, my project which is approximately 40% of my grade in this class which is a requirement for me to move forward on my chosen educational path was completely stalled. I appreciate everyone who provided some information in a direct or indirect manner to help me see where I was thinking incorrectly and where I should look instead. I will be fighting through this assignment and trying to figure out a few things using the information provided. I will also continue to use this thread as a reference for what to focus on exactly and see if anyone else cares to chime in (not likely at this point).

To everyone that did provide information, I am truly grateful it gave me places to start and something to look into. As I said, I had a very basic idea, and that was all. This will allow me to think about what machinists consider important in the machines they use every day.

Zack Lujan said:

To everyone I may have insulted with prior comments I do apologize. The internet is an easy place to allow oneself to vent, lose control, or otherwise be a dick. I was a dick. I was trying to be as cordial (to at least some degree), but it was very obvious what I was trying to do. The culmination of the last few weeks came to a boil when tdmidget said things I perceived to insult my intelligence, purpose, and goals. I understand that when dealing with things that can be used to commit crimes, people have to protect themselves and ensure that they keep their noses clean in the eyes of the law. I further understand that my question was vague which could lead to some confusing vagueness for a lack of a starting point with vagueness for the sake of finding out information for an activity other than advertised. Once again, I apologize. I snapped because of the other issues in my life at the moment and not really for any concrete reason here. And again, I do apologize.

My original post was vague because I was lost. I had some basic information, but no real jumping off point to begin my research. As a result, my project which is approximately 40% of my grade in this class which is a requirement for me to move forward on my chosen educational path was completely stalled. I appreciate everyone who provided some information in a direct or indirect manner to help me see where I was thinking incorrectly and where I should look instead. I will be fighting through this assignment and trying to figure out a few things using the information provided. I will also continue to use this thread as a reference for what to focus on exactly and see if anyone else cares to chime in (not likely at this point).

To everyone that did provide information, I am truly grateful it gave me places to start and something to look into. As I said, I had a very basic idea, and that was all. This will allow me to think about what machinists consider important in the machines they use every day.

Click to expand...

Let me see if some suggestions relevant to your assignment are of any use ...

It sounds like you are writing an example of a purchasing justification, and you invented the problem statement because you are interested in firearms. If so, try simplifying the problem. Pick a related family of products ( handguns, for example) that have related geometries. Describe the working envelope. Identify the type of operations needed (in general, like milling, drilling, tapping, 2 1/2D contouring, etc.), and the accuracies needed, and think about how you would break the process up into steps with fixturing. Guesstimate (make up) cycle times for the steps, for the sake of your fictitious process- the guess will be way wrong, but it gives you something to start with. Define the volumes you will be making of each product, and estimate the capacity you need. A variable in these estimates is the metal removal performance capabilities of the machine and tooling; this is something you need to run alternative analysis on as you research machines.

Then do your homework on the machines. You could make 1911s on a Tormach (very slowly, in small volumes) or you could spend 50 or 100 times as much on a high horsepower, 5 axis machine with automatic pallet changing and produce at probably 1000 times the rate. The optimum mix of capital cost, fixturing cost, tooling cost, and labor cost for the volumes of the products you want to make are what your paper needs to make a case for.