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  1. #21
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    Well Bill generally I screw them up by hand with one of those Brownell internal action wrenches and the NOGO will will close handily. The barrel is snug and with Loctite I'm certain it would hold. From that point I go to the mens tool crib and put on the action wrench and slowly apply pressure to the handle until the NOGO refuses to close. Then I insert the GO and continue pressing until all end play is gone from the bolt when the bolt is fully close. Between tightening with the stuff from the ladies tool crib and tightening with the equipment from the mens tool crib my headspace some how becomes .0015 to .003 tighter. Magic I assume. I don't use Loctite it works to well. But on heavy kickers I do put a couple drops of 5 minute epoxy on the threads. Not that it helps or is needed but it does make me feel better. On stainless to stainless I apply silicon anti seize. Some people claim that oil or grease on the thread extension will upset alignment but I personally have never been able to accurately measure the thickness of grease and oil so I personally don't care or prescribe to that notion. With bench guns I loosen the barrel after tightening and then re-tighten with the stuff from the Ladies tool crib and double check the GO gauge. I do not glue in barrels for bench guns or light calibers. I also NEVER hammer on action wrenches.

  2. #22
    willbird is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by speerchucker30x3 View Post
    Well Bill generally I screw them up by hand with one of those Brownell internal action wrenches and the NOGO will will close handily. The barrel is snug and with Loctite I'm certain it would hold. From that point I go to the mens tool crib and put on the action wrench and slowly apply pressure to the handle until the NOGO refuses to close. Then I insert the GO and continue pressing until all end play is gone from the bolt when the bolt is fully close. Between tightening with the stuff from the ladies tool crib and tightening with the equipment from the mens tool crib my headspace some how becomes .0015 to .003 tighter. Magic I assume. I don't use Loctite it works to well. But on heavy kickers I do put a couple drops of 5 minute epoxy on the threads. Not that it helps or is needed but it does make me feel better. On stainless to stainless I apply silicon anti seize. Some people claim that oil or grease on the thread extension will upset alignment but I personally have never been able to accurately measure the thickness of grease and oil so I personally don't care or prescribe to that notion. With bench guns I loosen the barrel after tightening and then re-tighten with the stuff from the Ladies tool crib and double check the GO gauge. I do not glue in barrels for bench guns or light calibers. I also NEVER hammer on action wrenches.
    As I said, there might be something in the water around here, or a lot of different things :-).

    Bill

  3. #23
    gorrilla is offline Stainless
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    If the barrel to receiver fit is what it's supposed to be, Loctite isn't necessary. All the guns I've shot, and been around (literally hundreds, if not thousands) and I've never seen a barrel come unthreaded if it was properly put together in the first place. If it has so much clearance as to require Loctite, somebody screwed the pooch, somewhere. If it was my gun, it would get the screw up properly fixed, or become a paperweight, or boat anchor. Loctite would probably work to keep it from coming unscrewed, but the question is, why would it need it? Only possible reasons I can think of are somebody trying to do a cheap repair to pawn it off on some unsuspecting customer, or someone trying to fix their own gun cheap instead of buying the right part. One is unethical, the other is dumb. Both are potentially dangerous.

  4. #24
    tdmidget is offline Titanium
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    So Willbird , are you saying that what these magicians call "crush" is actually "stretch", the elongation caused by tensioning the thread?

  5. #25
    Gthphtm is offline Aluminum
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    I have a number of custom made Hunting and Benchrest Rifles by at least 3 different gun smiths that have been around for a long time.None of the barrels were assembled into the receivers using locktite all have been assembled using anti seize.Stainless and Chrome molly barrels.
    Never had one work loose.All have an index mark on the barrel and receiver.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    So Willbird , are you saying that what these magicians call "crush" is actually "stretch", the elongation caused by tensioning the thread?
    not to answer for willbird but here's my $.02.

    i still personally think "crush" is a pretty accurate description. since headspace tightens up when torquing a barrel (i've personally found about .002" to be pretty common). that means the the distance between the shoulder in the chamber is now closer to the bolt face. in everything i chamber, the shoulder in the chamber is forward of the barrel/receiver shoulder. the end of the barrel is also now closer to the bolt. to me, that indicates that there is crush going on. if it were just the end of the barrel to the bolt distance closing up, then i would 100% agree with "stretch".

    assuming a remington 700 or clone type action, as far as the .002" goes, i find if i can just close the bolt on a go gauge +.002" with the barrel hand tight, i can just close the bolt on a go gauge with it torqued on. this also makes sense because i torque my barrels 10 to 15 degrees. 10 to 15 degrees on a .0625 pitch is .0017" to .0026".

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 300sniper View Post
    not to answer for willbird but here's my $.02.

    i still personally think "crush" is a pretty accurate description. since headspace tightens up when torquing a barrel (i've personally found about .002" to be pretty common). that means the the distance between the shoulder in the chamber is now closer to the bolt face. in everything i chamber, the shoulder in the chamber is forward of the barrel/receiver shoulder. the end of the barrel is also now closer to the bolt. to me, that indicates that there is crush going on. if it were just the end of the barrel to the bolt distance closing up, then i would 100% agree with "stretch".

    assuming a remington 700 or clone type action, as far as the .002" goes, i find if i can just close the bolt on a go gauge +.002" with the barrel hand tight, i can just close the bolt on a go gauge with it torqued on. this also makes sense because i torque my barrels 10 to 15 degrees. 10 to 15 degrees on a .0625 pitch is .0017" to .0026".
    Do most guns have a shoulder in the chamber that the barrel impinges upon in addition to the shoulder on the barrel that impinges upon the face of the receiver? It looked like the barrel of my carcano had both, I would have thought the shoulder on the barrel against the receiver face would have been enough? If two shoulders, what's the point or the advantage?

  8. #28
    tdmidget is offline Titanium
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    " i torque my barrels 10 to 15 degrees."
    Anchorman, That is not "torquing. That would be tensioning by radian measurement."Torquing must by definition involve measuring the torque applied. When you tighten that barrel hand tight one must realize that it is NOT tight. "Hand tight" means that the parts are in contact to the extent that manual force can be exerted. When a threaded fastener ( the joint between barrel and receiver is indeed a fastener) is properly tensioned it is held there by that tension and will not come loose. I work on machinery with fasteners as large as 6 1/2 inches in diameter. Machines such as steam turbines run for years at 1000 degrees and have no lock washers, loctite, or other black magic, only antiseize to prevent galling. The fastener does indeed stretch. That is the whole principal. If you want to call the joint faces "crushing" that's just another term for stretch.

  9. #29
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    how can the headspace get shorter if the tenon is stretching? since the shoulder in the chamber where the headspace is measured from is forward of the shoulder where the barrel meets the receiver face, stretching the threaded tenon or receiver threads would not change the headspace. the only dimentions that would change were the distance between the end of the barrel and the front of the bolt.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    " i torque my barrels 10 to 15 degrees."
    Anchorman, That is not "torquing. That would be tensioning by radian measurement."Torquing must by definition involve measuring the torque applied. When you tighten that barrel hand tight one must realize that it is NOT tight.

    You got the wrong guy, I was just quoting what he said to ask a question...

    That said, have you ever read the instructions on a package of spark plugs? They spec for installation doing exactly as he describes, since many people won't have a torque wrench. Install hand tight, I.e. until the thing won't turn anymore by hand without applying any real amount of force, then turn another quarter turn or some such... They have a different (lesser amount) listed for installing used spark plugs because the little crush washers on them have already been crushed so you need to turn maybe 1/8 turn instead of half to seat it with enough force that it won't back out. Applying any amount of force at all is "torquing" the fastener. How much is anyone's guess, unless they have done the same proceedure while using a torque wrench or some other measuring device. YMMV, do this at your own risk, etc, etc, all standard disclaimers apply.

  11. #31
    willbird is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    So Willbird , are you saying that what these magicians call "crush" is actually "stretch", the elongation caused by tensioning the thread?
    The thread is not in tension in many designs, where it is going on is compression of the front of the action, or the barrel tenon, probably shows up more where those surfaces are not parallel to each other and the front of the action is not square to the thread ? Recoil lugs like the Remington type not having parallel sides ?

    It would be interesting to see mechanical engineering wise how much torque on average is required to get .002" "crush".

    The Germans used some heavy ships wheel type of device to tighten Mauser barrels, many claim that is why they are so tight.

    Also both the barrel threads and the action threads "give" as well as the two faces when you draw it up to "snug" then go say another 90 degrees (nobody does that probably)...so 1/4 turn at .062" lead will not advance the face of the barrel .0155" deeper into the action will it.?? It would in the free state if there were no shoulder ? The barrels that use square threads would maybe achieve more "crush" per degree of tightening ?

    Speerchucker has to tighten his more because he sends them off with the moron mouthbreathers of the world, mine besides a select few stay here at home.



    Bill

  12. #32
    D&T
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    I customize a lot of Ruger Super Redhawk pistols and these have to be heated to remove the barrel from the frame because they are heavily coated with a thread locker...

    Browning is another company that loc-tites all of their rifle barrels in place and I have seen more than a handful of guns that customers brought by that had either the barrel or barrel completely stripped of any an all threads...

    What most guys think is thread locker on Remington rifles is actually bluing salts. Remington blues their rifles with the barrel threaded to the action and the bluing salts creep into the threads...

    I got in a Remington rifle last week to install a muzzle brake on and that barrel was "loose" when the customer handed it to me. Rick said that he could not get consistant accuracy from the gun and it just kicked too much, which was the reason for the brake. After properly tightening the barrel and installing the brake, that particular 300 Ultra Mag would consistently shoot under an inch at 100 yds. with factory ammo. I did not use any loc-tite on the barrel/receiver threads but, I always use loc-tite when installing a brake on any barrel....

  13. #33
    tdmidget is offline Titanium
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    "The thread is not in tension in many designs, where it is going on is compression of the front of the action, or the barrel tenon, probably shows up more where those surfaces are not parallel to each other and the front of the action is not square to the thread ? Recoil lugs like the Remington type not having parallel sides ?"
    A threaded fastener that is not in tension is loose. In the case of a barrel tenon the shoulder functions exactly like the head of a bolt. Everything from the shoulder to the other end of the receiver thread is in tension. The shoulder and action face are in compression, which is where I suspect the "crush" comes from. However nothing is "crushed" and when loosened the original dimensions should be intact.

    It would be interesting to see mechanical engineering wise how much torque on average is required to get .002" "crush".
    Torque would not be an appropriate method. It can vary widely due to various lubricants and thread condition. Radian measurement would be accurate to produce a specific elongation.

    Also both the barrel threads and the action threads "give" as well as the two faces when you draw it up to "snug" then go say another 90 degrees (nobody does that probably)...so 1/4 turn at .062" lead will not advance the face of the barrel .0155" deeper into the action will it.?? It would in the free state if there were no shoulder ? The barrels that use square threads would maybe achieve more "crush" per degree of tightening ?
    The loss due to compression will be negligible if the barrel is snugged up before tensioning. On large fasteners we sometimes have a call out for .050' elongation, or stretch. Remember that a screw thread is a very accurate measuring device (as micrometer). On a typical barrel tenon .015' might get you to the yield point (aka stripping) but I would think it might be possible.

  14. #34
    willbird is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    A threaded fastener that is not in tension is loose. In the case of a barrel tenon the shoulder functions exactly like the head of a bolt. Everything from the shoulder to the other end of the receiver thread is in tension. The shoulder and action face are in compression, which is where I suspect the "crush" comes from. However nothing is "crushed" and when loosened the original dimensions should be intact.



    Torque would not be an appropriate method. It can vary widely due to various lubricants and thread condition. Radian measurement would be accurate to produce a specific elongation.



    The loss due to compression will be negligible if the barrel is snugged up before tensioning. On large fasteners we sometimes have a call out for .050' elongation, or stretch. Remember that a screw thread is a very accurate measuring device (as micrometer). On a typical barrel tenon .015' might get you to the yield point (aka stripping) but I would think it might be possible.
    Torque might not be ACCURATE, but ti DOES tell us "no human could ever tighten this enough with the average tools used to over stress the fastener/thread/etc.". If it would take 600 ft lbs of torque for example to strip a Remington 700 barrel (the barrels is softer than the action so my bet is it would strip before the action) we know that the average human can never "get there". Torque required to advance a screw thread against a given amount of force while it has been proven to not be terribly accurate, can still be calculated.

    I do see what you are saying that the barrel tenon is like a very short bolt/screw on a Remington 700, but on a Mauser type action the pressure on the threads (or tension if that is the proper term) is in the opposite direction, the face of the barrel bottoms down inside the action so to me it looks like the barrel tenon in that case is in compression not tension ?

    Also when you exert tension on a 60 degree thread inside what is essentially heavy walled tubing (a typical rifle action where the barrel threads in) how much does the diameter of the "tubing" swell when you apply tension , also the barrel itself in many chamberings is essentially tubing too, does the chamber dia shrink when you apply tension ? Revolvers according to some folks show a shrinkage in the bore due to the tension of the threads at the breech (and muzzle in some cases).

    Bill

  15. #35
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    The simple fact remains that I can put the barrel in a vise and instal an action wrench on just about any bolt action rifle you want to throw at me and I can decrease the headspace. Its not to hard to grasp. No matter how well you machine something with cutting tools it is never going to be perfectly flat or perfectly smooth. There may only be a variance of 1/4 of one thousandths of an inch on the surface finish of the cut and because of the inaccuracy of the machine but it does exist. On a Remington 700 there is the surface of the barrel shoulder, the forward surface of the recoil lug, the rear surface of the recoil lug and the face of the action. Putting a 3 foot handle on a wrench and applying force to 16 TPI will generate a LOT of force. Enough force to displace metal. If all four of these surfaces are crushed together those 1/4 thousandths add up quickly. I have never tried to over tighten an action but I have no doubt that if I really wanted to I could take up the headspace 1/64th of an inch without breaking a sweat. Metal does move. Not a good practice and I would never and have never done it. But with the equipment I have it is not beyond reality. And lets face it .002 is nothing. I know some of you cut to withing 1/20th of a thousandths of an inch all the time. But to me .001 inch is as close as I care (and can) measure or cut to. Taking up .002 of headspace with proper equipment is what most of us normally see in practice and it is generally considered to be a good thing. Arguing about how tight a barrel should be is akin to arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and no one has conclusively proved which system is better. Over tightening logically is going to cause alignment problems and is generally frowned on. But if the gun is going to be used and abused in a hunting or military scenario parts should not be shaking off. Also, most of the gun plumbers I have known and worked with over the years believe that even bench guns should be crushed up once to get the surfaces to mate properly even though they will loosen them off and snug them back up with the foo foo wrench before delivering it to the customer.

  16. #36
    Swarfboy71 is offline Aluminum
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    Speerchucker,you are going to upset a lot of people if you can only machine to those "wide" tolerances! Lol.
    Seems lots of people here have 1/10 gauges and then like to split them. Going a little far I recon. An acquaintance of mine decided to test some of the 1/10 clocks in a temp controlled room and found none of them read as they indicated. By all means be accurate, I think some guys take it a little to far...

  17. #37
    Claude Wright is offline Cast Iron
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    As a millwright the proper tensioning of threaded fasteners is part of my job. So what is this "crush"? Is this some magic term to sound technical? If I "crushed" a fastener I would have a mess.
    "crush" the tenon of barrel is .002 longer than to reciever shoulder.

  18. #38
    willbird is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claude Wright View Post
    "crush" the tenon of barrel is .002 longer than to reciever shoulder.
    More properly we we have a threaded part that according to many protrudes .002" or more deeper into the part when tightened to the proper torque than pure measurement would show. Even if the threaded part is bottoming into the bottom of the threaded hole more or less in a mauser action.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by D&T View Post
    What most guys think is thread locker on Remington rifles is actually bluing salts. Remington blues their rifles with the barrel threaded to the action and the bluing salts creep into the threads...


    probably not a whole lot of bluing salts on this.







    i'm not saying that it is or isn't but sure smelled a lot like loctite.

  20. #40
    JBCGUNS is offline Aluminum
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    [ An acquaintance of mine decided to test some of the 1/10 clocks in a temp controlled room and found none of them read as they indicated. By all means be accurate, I think some guys take it a little to far...[/QUOTE]

    Hence the commonly overlooked diefference between precision and accuracy.

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