Looking to get in to machining for firearm parts, what mill to start with?

Djstorm100 · Jul 29, 2014

As title says above I'm looking to get in to this. I do have a machinist background while it is limited, I love learning and know I'm jumping in the deep end of the pool. I do enjoy writing/learning G-code oddy enough even though I do not have a machine to use. I'm hoping to change all that though. I'm not looking to make a living off of it but more as a serious enthusiast. Could make money later, as my experience grows.

Artv · Jul 29, 2014

Djstorm100 said:
As title says above I'm looking to get in to this. I do have a machinist background while it is limited, I love learning and know I'm jumping in the deep end of the pool. I do enjoy writing/learning G-code oddy enough even though I do not have a machine to use. I'm hoping to change all that though. I'm not looking to make a living off of it but more as a serious enthusiast. Could make money later, as my experience grows.

Really need more info on what you are going to do. A short answer so you can look around. For a manual machine, you would want a bridgeport in fairly good shape although I have a Van Norman 12 which serves me well. Anything will work as long as it is tight. A good one should be about $2500 or so. For CNC, I would like to recommend the Tormack, but I don't have that much experience with them and by the time you get one equipped the way you want it, it might be better to rethink; they have short x axis, really short. There are really good machines on the used market, I recommend the Mazak 16 or 20 which could be cheaper than the mini CNC (however used considerably more). They use Mazatrol language in addition to G-Code. The Mazatrol is really easy to use.

With used equipment, especially a production unit like a Mazak, you have to be careful and try and get a machine that wasn't used hard, here the telephone is your friend, call the guy who put all the hours on it.

Art

300sniper · Jul 29, 2014

Material? Size/shape of parts? Quantity? Budget? Expectations?

Edit: Location: garage/industrial shop? Available electric supply? Available machine footprint/work space?

toolsteel · Jul 29, 2014

Many of the gun parts I have seen/ ran are best done with a 4th axis....

CarbideBob · Jul 29, 2014

These are nice.
The C 400
(yup, I'm not much help but you give very few limits and you would really like this machine or it's bigger brothers.)
Bob

Djstorm100 · Jul 30, 2014

Artv said:
Really need more info on what you are going to do. A short answer so you can look around. For a manual machine, you would want a bridgeport in fairly good shape although I have a Van Norman 12 which serves me well. Anything will work as long as it is tight. A good one should be about $2500 or so. For CNC, I would like to recommend the Tormack, but I don't have that much experience with them and by the time you get one equipped the way you want it, it might be better to rethink; they have short x axis, really short. There are really good machines on the used market, I recommend the Mazak 16 or 20 which could be cheaper than the mini CNC (however used considerably more). They use Mazatrol language in addition to G-Code. The Mazatrol is really easy to use.

With used equipment, especially a production unit like a Mazak, you have to be careful and try and get a machine that wasn't used hard, here the telephone is your friend, call the guy who put all the hours on it.

Art

Art, thanks for the info I oringally looking for a bridgeport and then convert it to CNC but through research it seems as if it would best to get a machine that was already CNC. After time and money I would be close to the cost of a factory equipped CNC.

300sniper said:
Material? Size/shape of parts? Quantity? Budget? Expectations?

Edit: Location: garage/industrial shop? Available electric supply? Available machine footprint/work space?

Material to mosty be Alumn like 6061/ 7570...Steel SS and 4140. Most what what I'm wanting to do is rails for AR-15's Location will be in 2nd garage, 30x30. Have 220/240 volt hook up. The garage is pretty empty at the moment or I can make room pretty easily.

toolsteel said:
Many of the gun parts I have seen/ ran are best done with a 4th axis....

JNieman · Jul 30, 2014

One-offs or volume production?

What type of parts? Cheap crap to hang on an AR that all the kiddies will buy and play tacticool? High precision steel components like bolts and safeties? Bolt knobs?

Material requirements and quantities are the driving factor. Part TYPES will indicate whether you need a lathe or a 4th axis or a simple 3 axis mill, or even a CNC at all.

Djstorm100 · Jul 30, 2014

JNieman said:
One-offs or volume production?

What type of parts? Cheap crap to hang on an AR that all the kiddies will buy and play tacticool? High precision steel components like bolts and safeties? Bolt knobs?

Material requirements and quantities are the driving factor. Part TYPES will indicate whether you need a lathe or a 4th axis or a simple 3 axis mill, or even a CNC at all.

One off Rails systems. I'm a firearm Instructor, so no tacticool garage. One kid showed up to carbine class with fake Eotech, flashlight, bipod and vertical foregrip (2 different units), laser and flashlight. Poor kid.

Parts, Bolt locks, safeties, triggers maybe (doubtful), rail system.

It's for R&D mainly, not production. Don't have that kind of cash to open manufacturing.

allloutmx · Jul 30, 2014

I have a small mill, 2 axis prototrak mill. It is a good start...already wishing I had more of a machine but It gets things done.

Budget?

For one offs, You don't NEED anything to "expensive" or "elaborate".
If you start getting into anything with quantities, your going to want an ATC

Djstorm100 · Jul 30, 2014

allloutmx said:
I have a small mill, 2 axis prototrak mill. It is a good start...already wishing I had more of a machine but It gets things done.

Budget?

For one offs, You don't NEED anything to "expensive" or "elaborate".
If you start getting into anything with quantities, your going to want an ATC

5k-10k a the moment. I know it's not alot

allloutmx · Jul 30, 2014

matsuura | eBay

Nevermind the nude Japanese girls...the matuuras are good iron, gear driven spindle... run forever. going cheap too

300sniper · Jul 30, 2014

Djstorm100 said:
5k-10k a the moment. I know it's not alot

Just a FYI, I'm almost at $5k right now just in phase converter and associated electrical just to be able to run a 20hp turning center in my garage. And that's just material, I don't pay labor.

Your budget may get you into a base model Tormach or an equipped used one. It will run on garage power but you will need to understand the limitations.

Djstorm100 · Jul 30, 2014

300sniper said:
Just a FYI, I'm almost at $5k right now just in phase converter and associated electrical just to be able to run a 20hp turning center in my garage. And that's just material, I don't pay labor.

Your budget may get you into a base model Tormach or an equipped used one. It will run on garage power but you will need to understand the limitations.

When you say associated electrical what are you referring too? If you are saying I would need to have a election to come and wire up 220/240, luckily my uncle is one but I did wire up my 240 air compressor.

Reading reviews the Tormach lacks in accuracy? No?

Abeship · Jul 30, 2014

Tormach is as accurate as you want it to be

.

I have been able to hold +-.001 on it in aluminum fairly easily... All depends on your definition of accurate, plus don't you want it to be accurate AND precise?

With your budget a tormach, or older used CNC is really what you are limited to.

For electrical he is talking about 3 phase power, any real CNC machine will need it, and that either means buying/building your own RPC and hooking it up.

Djstorm100 · Jul 30, 2014

Sorry, I failed to realize that the members here know the difference between accurate and Precise. Many many members on other forums from firearms to cars fail to realize the difference lol.

This sounds silly and probably easy answer but how do you know that you were able to hold .001. I would say simple answer is to measure but what if it is a part you can not accuracy measure?

Abeship said:
Tormach is as accurate as you want it to be .

I have been able to hold +-.001 on it in aluminum fairly easily... All depends on your definition of accurate, plus don't you want it to be accurate AND precise?

With your budget a tormach, or older used CNC is really what you are limited to.

For electrical he is talking about 3 phase power, any real CNC machine will need it, and that either means buying/building your own RPC and hooking it up.

300sniper · Jul 30, 2014

Djstorm100 said:
When you say associated electrical what are you referring too? If you are saying I would need to have a election to come and wire up 220/240, luckily my uncle is one but I did wire up my 240 air compressor.

Reading reviews the Tormach lacks in accuracy? No?

$3000 for the 40hp rotary phase converter.
$1500 in wire, disconnect/breaker, miscellaneous conduit and other parts
$500 in beer

The Tormach lacks speed, horsepower and mass/rigidity. Depending on your needs, it may make up for it with it's small footprint, single phase power requirement, and light weight (a few buddies can move it, no expensive trucking/rigging)

Butch Lambert · Jul 30, 2014

Djstorm100 said:
Sorry, I failed to realize that the members here know the difference between accurate and Precise. Many many members on other forums from firearms to cars fail to realize the difference lol.

This sounds silly and probably easy answer but how do you know that you were able to hold .001. I would say simple answer is to measure but what if it is a part you can not accuracy measure?

What kind of part would that be?

ditchdigger · Jul 31, 2014

Butch Lambert said:
What kind of part would that be?

The kind where his limited machining experience will become a major stumbling block.

Djstorm100 · Jul 31, 2014

ditchdigger said:
The kind where his limited machining experience will become a major stumbling block.

Thank you for your wise contribution to the thread.

ditchdigger · Jul 31, 2014

Any time DJstorm100! My business partner and I have found we have some machine time not being used, and we like to keep the CNCs running and turning a buck or two. We have more than "limited" machining experience. I've been cutting metals for 42 yrs. and he's been at it for 35. We write G code daily. There's more to it than just 'writing code'. You have to take it and load it and see how it's going to work and IF it's going to work. We are always keeping our eyes and minds open to have work for those machines (and ourselves) to do, this is a "job shop". We're not the kind of 'machinists' who put material in, push the green button, and take a part out. Making AR rails and other simple parts won't hardly pay for the tooling costs. There's currently a hugh glut of AR parts, and they're "on sale" everywhere you look. Good luck with your endevor. Seems to be at least one a month that comes up with the same idea you have.

Looking to get in to machining for firearm parts, what mill to start with?

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