mill recommendations

My gunsmithing operation is just getting going as a business.. I have my lathe and other tools, but am looking to get a mill that will serve me for 90% of the normal gunsmithing work that I'd come across. I only have about a 4'x4' footprint area that I can put the mill. I am wondering about what do I really need that will pay for itself in the long run without mortgaging the house! I have looked at some old Bridgeport's that might work, but I don't know that I really have the space for it. Plus, the shipping on some of those costs more than the machine when you live out in the boonies like I do. Do I really need a knee type machine? Is flutting barrels really that much of the average shops mill work (only job that I can think of that would need a long table)? I'm told by a machinist friend that I NEED one with an R8 collet set up. IF I go with the knee type, do you need the ram head? I plan on buying this in about March. My other issue is going to be getting this into my shop. I have only a 7' door to roll it through with no room to pick it with. So weight play some in the choice.

The decision is really really determined by the work you plan to offer and your skill/experience level. A BP would be a solid choice but there are other knee mills out there that would suffice. Some of the smaller ones like Rockwell and Powermatic demand a premium that might exceed the shipping charge you are worried about. The greater the capability of the machine, the greater your flexibility in solving customer problems. I have no doubt that an experience machinist/gunsmith could get by with a round column, benchtop mill-drill, but productivity and sanity would suffer.
You don't need R8 but tooling is cheap and common. Any collet system would work but older M-heads with MT2 are not as desirable.

If you list the work you plan to do and that which you would not do, it would be easier to suggest options. I consider making custom scope bases part of normal work, do you plan to do that sort of thing? Also, keep in mind that mill tooling for other than basic operations will probably be at least a $1000 in the short term depending on how the mill is equipped.

R8 is nice cause it's so common.

I like my Wells Index 645, but it has a B&S 9 spindle. Wells Index will regrind it to R8 if I so desire.

If the available footprint is only 4' x 4', a full size knee mill (Bridgeport) is out. Start with fluted barrel blanks, farm fluting work out or let customers know that it is a worthless "upgrade".

Other than fluting, what ops do you need it for? That will dictate what you can get away with. But I would try to stick with the R8 spindle because of the options it offers.

Some how make yourself a larger footprint , get you a used BP , even if you have to mortgage your house , you will not be sorry. You can do so much with a BP, and there is tooling every where now days . Get one and I will even send you a care package of end mills and stuff I have laying around. Good luck. Ed ,,,,, PS ,,,, PM me if you get you a mill, be glad to help you out, ( with some tooling). I remember the days when I just was starting, and sweating bullets, wondering if I where going to make it, I am still sweating bullets ! 40 yrs, 25 CNCs and 25 employees later , god to be back in my basement !

If your 'footprint' dims are that precise and that cozy two things are of concern to me:
1) Room to work around it (setups, service) and 'Y' working range must consider table length/travel, and that would want to be generous to mount a proper indexing fixture for fluting.
2) Knee mill, yes but I'd rather flute tubes on a horizontal any day vs a turret-head, .. or job that portion out. (My experience is toolmaking & grinding vs properly trained 'smithing' and so far a small dovetail-column mill suits tweaking receiver tops for or locating scope base holes, some bolt work, etc)

If you do buy imported (Chi-crap?), just leave out the name and discuss your tooling/setups. Also, add a location to our profile ("USA" ,etc) so we know you're shop's not on the ISS or another planet. (Physical help may be closer than you imagine.)

By all means don't settle for a round-column mill (glorified drill press). What tooling fits R-8 can get you into trouble quickly when lacking rigidity in the 'X-Y' plane. 'Z' travel will be limited to quill extension () without losing 'X-Y' position when making gross 'Z' moves. All your mills, center drills, counter-bores, drills, taps ~ the same length? (You knew that ...)

I'm sure you understand the compromises regarding lathes. Generous spindle bores mean large lathes, and smaller s-bores mean working between centers where a 40" or more bed may be needed for full carriage travel to work off the steady. (Nothing sucks more than floor-space constraints .. Y'knew that, too ...)

btw: A bigger reason, for me, (than being 65) not to go to gunsmithing school is potential liability when doing chamber or trigger work beyond measuring or inspecting. (got enuf liability coverage?) I'm not fully trained/qualified for the tricky 'smithing bits, so consider this advice as from left field if you must.

"where you at???"

"You can do so much with a BP, and there is tooling every where now days."

Along with the usual horizontal milling attachment, BP also offers a broaching attachment with which you could make, say, a falling block action from PH steel.

I have a well tooled Clausing 8530 that fits your space requirement and is well made USA iron. It has a #2MT spindle which is not as available as R8, but obtainable from many sources. I have quite a bit of tooling that would go with the mill that would more than get you started. PM me if you are interested. I am planning on listing it here in the spring, but if opportunity knocks.....

Where are you located?

plothoundsman said:

Some how make yourself a larger footprint , get you a used BP , even if you have to mortgage your house , you will not be sorry. You can do so much with a BP, and there is tooling every where now days . Get one and I will even send you a care package of end mills and stuff I have laying around. Good luck. Ed ,,,,, PS ,,,, PM me if you get you a mill, be glad to help you out, ( with some tooling). I remember the days when I just was starting, and sweating bullets, wondering if I where going to make it, I am still sweating bullets ! 40 yrs, 25 CNCs and 25 employees later , god to be back in my basement !

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Thanks for the offer. I will certainly take you up on that if I go that way. At nearly retirement age myself, the pocket book may decide for me!

thermite said:

If you ever decide to IMPROVE it rather than downgrade it just for easier to find tooling, see if it can stand a 40 taper for common but also stronger and less hassle NMTB/ISO / Cat / BT tooling.

R-8 is only about the equivalent of #7 B&S as to drive capability, and you'l NEED more of that common tooling 'coz it wears faster and is more easily damaged than #9 B&S.

Bill

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To add to this, if you ever get the spindle re-ground make sure you list the B&S tooling here. I have a Wells-Index with B&S 9 taper and I like it. Yes, it's bit harder to find tooling for but I've done alright just patiently watching ebay for things that pop up. Of course you can always use straight-shank tools held in a collet... My drill chuck and 1 of my boring heads are straight shank.

That being said, it's not terribly hard to make custom tooling arbors etc. I have a buddy with a Haas CNC machine. I have him turn the taper and drill/tap the draw-bolt hole, even though I could technically do that on my lathe it's just easier to have him do it on CNC. Then I finish the rest off by drawing the partially machined arbor up into the spindle and clamping a lathe bit in my mill vice then finish turn/bore/tap. The hardest part is if you need drive-keys etc for a face mill arbor. I did have to make a face-mill arbor recently and the drive-keys took more time than the rest of the operations combined.

ber778 said:

I have a well tooled Clausing 8530 that fits your space requirement and is well made USA iron. It has a #2MT spindle which is not as available as R8, but obtainable from many sources. I have quite a bit of tooling that would go with the mill that would more than get you started. PM me if you are interested. I am planning on listing it here in the spring, but if opportunity knocks.....

Where are you located?

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I am in NE Wyoming. Long ways but still interested. PM'ing doesn't seem to be going out for me. Would you send one my way?

chi-stuff

Is the import stuff really that bad? Even if I guy gets the heavier knee type machines? I have a machinist friend that says with the amount of work a gunsmith does on a few hours a week basis, that a newer chi machine is worth it. I don't know if I agree, aside from wanting to by American anyway. I was really surprised to see that Grizzly is marketing South Bend machines now too.., made in Taiwan...??? Is there really anything made here any more that the average guy can afford?

I sure can find a fair number of BP mills, in my range, but they all seem to be back east. What's it going to cost to ship one to Wyoming? Anyone know of a place to get them out here?

A lot. Maybe you should pick it up yourself. They are about a ton. With gas cheap right now, it might be cheaper even counting lodging.

I may just do that. It would be getting the time to drive somewhere that far off. I would probably have to rent a trailer too. I don't think a half ton pickup would drive to well with one in the back...experience there?

ssgw said:

I may just do that. It would be getting the time to drive somewhere that far off. I would probably have to rent a trailer too. I don't think a half ton pickup would drive to well with one in the back...experience there?

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Basically, that's what I had to do. Living in eastern Nebraska, which is also a "machine wasteland", I ended up taking a trailer up to northern Michigan to pick up my Index 860. I probably could have had it shipped for what my trip cost but I drove it to have the peace of mind that my used but newly bought mill wouldn't be destroyed by the shipper.

-Ron

That really says what I am thinking. What do I NEED in a one man gunsmith shop with limited funds and work coming in. I see things like Bill noted above in dovetails for sites, receiver work and such. The Fluting I could farm out. I am at an age where I won't be trading up more than a time or too if things take off, but I do need something that will do the job right.

thermite said:

JM2CW, but for what a "Gunsmith" really needs, finding most ANYTHING locally then just tooling it and adapting to it for what you actually do NOW makes more sense.

Folk such as Weatherby contracted-out the production of their designs. Those doing slide-rails and sight dovetails one at a time, in-house don't need the latest, best, most widely-used, easily-tooled .. yada yadda. Just a machine that lets them get the job done 'now'.

That Clausing, for example? Not what a 'production' shop would have at the top of the menu. But all you need and more for typical work on small-arms. How many 'sets' of MT, R8, or #9 B&S d'you suppose you need to stock up on? One 'set' will do for scores of years.

Worry about a 'more ideal' mill when the work demands one and has identified what features of it even need to BE "more ideal". Meanwhile, even a Burke #4 or pre-WWI Whitney beats all Hell out of nought but a set of files.

Not as if we were 'rationed' to only being allowed to own ONE mill our entire lives. Just plan to trade 'em as you would a motorcar. Or at least a house.


Bill

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That is a good point in itself. I had no idea that the Front Range would be such Machine Wasteland ( )

MetalCarnage said:

Basically, that's what I had to do. Living in eastern Nebraska, which is also a "machine wasteland", I ended up taking a trailer up to northern Michigan to pick up my Index 860. I probably could have had it shipped for what my trip cost but I drove it to have the peace of mind that my used but newly bought mill wouldn't be destroyed by the shipper.

-Ron

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thermite said:

I'd grab a small Van Norman, Abene, Solberga, one of the Nawthun Italian combo mills .. a Georg Deckel or clone .. if wishes were fishes.

I HAVE a Burke #4, and its larger combo-mill cousin, the "Quartet". But I don't have your need-set. I try to not BUY firearms as need much work, and I don't DARE f**k with my favorite that Orren Bellows handed to me at quatah-minute accuracy in 1961.

A vertical is easier for MOST of what YOU will have. The Clausing is typical of what just works well-enough. A BeePee is better, but harder to afford 'coz everyone thinks they just HAVE to have one.

I'd rather have a Wells-Index, Tree, DoAll, (Republic)-Lagun.. or a few others from among the better Taiwanese clones - most of which go CHEAP - and put the money saved vs a stiffer-priced - and probably more nearly worn-out - BeePee towards a better vise and tooling meself

If wishes were fishes...

What have you found 'for real' that is close and affordable?

May be easier for folks here to tell you what to AVOID than what to get.

Bill

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I am pretty far out in the sticks. It's a 2+ hour drive just to get to a city of 100k people where there is a surplus machinery store. He usually doesn't have anything in my range. Denver is the next best and that is 6 hours away. That is workable, but not a "just to see what they have" drive. So, I've found nothing so far.
With that in mind, what should I avoid?

How many flute barrels on a manual machine and come out ahead? Looks to me like the CNC guys have that tied-up. 6 flutes, 8 flutes, 12 flutes, spiral flutes, interrupted flutes. In this case simple programming (or adjustments to an existing program, that's already in memory) is much quicker than a manual set-up. Not to mention the 'rapids' and automatic indexing of the 4th axis (you still have to pay attention to your work supports). What most gunsmiths need is ridged machine that you can easily use to make extractor cuts, do some precise locating of holes, mill a head off of a frozen screw, and most of all, make tools. I've done some fluting on manual machines, both vertical and horizontal. I've cut flutes on a CNC vertical mill, too. The CNC proved a much better option for me, and I'm not a big 'computerguy" . I'm a manual machinist 1st, and a CNC set-up/operator/ shop floor 'programer' 2nd.