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Open Neck up on FL Sizer?

gzig5

Hot Rolled
Joined
May 10, 2005
Location
Milwaukee, WI
I'm setting up for a 22BR. I have standard FL (Forster & Redding) as well as Redding S-type neck and FL collet sizers. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. It is supposed to be simple to run the brass into a regular FL die and size the neck from 6mm to 22 in one swoop. I do that but the FL dies seem to oversize the brass and am getting what I consider to be excess neck runout (greater than 5-10 thou) even after running a mandrel down the neck after necking down. The collet dies won't size the neck all the way to the shoulder, but they do result in sub-.005" runnout. I can make a custom die to hold the neck bushings as one option. The other is to open the neck on one of the FL sizers from .240, which is way too small IMO, up to .250" which is about where the neck needs to be for a .254" chamber neck. Do I use a carbide boring bar, die grinder, or both? I think I have solid bars small enough and long enough to make the cuts. .005 per side seems like a lot to grind. If I can get the carbide bar to cut sufficiently, take .004" off and grind then lap/polish the rest? The final size is not critical IMO but the finish is.

I know there are guys who do this but time is getting critical and I'm not sure I can wait before I get the 400+ pieces of brass sized down and a light turn. Then I still need to do load development and only have four months before the spring ground squirrel trip. I won't have time or want to fireform all the brass before the trip so I hope to get it as straight as possible by stepping neck down from .267 to .258 and then through the .250 FL die.
 
Have you thought about annealing the necks first? You don’t need a annealing machine, you can do it with a propane torch and rotating it in your hand
 
I don't think annealing will help. The problem is the body isn't supported when the neck gets crammed into the die.

I had the same problem. Tried making a die with a sliding sleeve to support the body, to use in a Redding BR seater. Sorta worked, but I never got around to refining it so it worked well and smoothly. Wound up somehow getting a bushing die set, with the bushing locked down, not floating, that sized the cases straight. Ran them all through without bothering to think of why it was working.

I think maybe I randomly had one that came out straight and used it to set the bushing die.

I agree they oversize the brass. I hone most of mine to what I want, using a turned bushing to fit the body as a guide. Dialing it in and boring it should work just fine. I think maybe my unturned brass wouldn't fit the BR seater sleeve either, so I had to open it up with the chamber reamer.

Sizing in steps may help as well.
 
Annealing is not the problem. Apparently it is well known that S dies don't size the neck all the way down, now I know. Making bushings to step the neck down is not a problem but I'll have to make a die/holder to be able to reach the shoulder and all that adds up in machining time. I am also considering running the chamber reamer into a piece of old barrel and use that as an intermediate die, but I still have to get that last little bit of the neck down to under the chamber neck dia. That's where a FL die with a reasonable neck dia would be nice. I've never tried to open a die neck but if it will cut reasonably with a solid carbide boring bar, I think I will give it a try. I have some small diameter copper laps that should fit to polish it out. Any recommendation for RPM? My lathe has gear settings for 100, 200, 300, 400, 600, 1000, and 2000 rpm.
 
I took the easy way out. I had a beat up 219 Zipper Imp seater die in the junk box and cut 3/8" off the bottom, opened the body up, and then bored and lapped the neck out to .250". Using the Redding bushing neck sizer with a .258 bushing then a .250 bushing and finally the modified die, I get the neck sized to .250" OD all the way to the shoulder. Runout is about .003" which I should be able to live with for the first firing. I don't think it would have been much faster to thread a hunk of stock to 7/8-14 and bore the end. This way the die can be set so the press cams over and it sizes to the same spot every time. I need to polish the lead in to the neck a bit and I might be able to just use the modified die by itself but it scuffs up the brass if it isn't stepped down first.

I did play with the Zipper sizer but it was hard as woodpecker lips, so I don't think I would have been successful boring out the neck of the Redding or Forster FL sizer. It looks like that is a lapping/honing job which would take me forever to move .010" without different equipment. I think Forster will hone the neck out for $10 or plus shipping so I might look into that depending on how I like the Redding bushing dies.
 
Easy way is to get a Redding full length bushing die. You are not suppose to go more than 0.005 in one step. However in thise case it doesn't matter. I would go half the distance between 6mm to 22. Then one more final step. Then take a sinclair mandrel in 22 cal (it's 0.002 undersized) this will expand the neck out to 0.002 under the size of a 22 cal.
 
I'm setting up for a 22BR. I have standard FL (Forster & Redding) as well as Redding S-type neck and FL collet sizers. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. It is supposed to be simple to run the brass into a regular FL die and size the neck from 6mm to 22 in one swoop. I do that but the FL dies seem to oversize the brass and am getting what I consider to be excess neck runout (greater than 5-10 thou) even after running a mandrel down the neck after necking down. The collet dies won't size the neck all the way to the shoulder, but they do result in sub-.005" runnout. I can make a custom die to hold the neck bushings as one option. The other is to open the neck on one of the FL sizers from .240, which is way too small IMO, up to .250" which is about where the neck needs to be for a .254" chamber neck. Do I use a carbide boring bar, die grinder, or both? I think I have solid bars small enough and long enough to make the cuts. .005 per side seems like a lot to grind. If I can get the carbide bar to cut sufficiently, take .004" off and grind then lap/polish the rest? The final size is not critical IMO but the finish is.

I know there are guys who do this but time is getting critical and I'm not sure I can wait before I get the 400+ pieces of brass sized down and a light turn. Then I still need to do load development and only have four months before the spring ground squirrel trip. I won't have time or want to fireform all the brass before the trip so I hope to get it as straight as possible by stepping neck down from .267 to .258 and then through the .250 FL die.

Just wondering how you made out with the 22BR cases.
 
I fired twenty-five rounds as prepped above to break in the barrel. First five shoot and clean and adjust scope. I then shot two three shot groups with 50gr bullets, cleaning after each and then two three shot group with 55, 69, and 75 grain bullets. Again cleaning after each group. The 50's shot just under .5". The 55 a little better at about 7/16. The 69s went into .350" and the 75 Amax were under .250". So I'd say the prep method worked. All groups had vertical from (I think) poor rifle balance which has been addressed by adding about 1.25 pounds to the butt. Don't know if they got smaller due to the 8" twist liking heavier bullets or just the barrel settling in. Will find out when it warms up a little.

I'm now getting ready to prep the rest of the 400 Rem 6BR cases. I've modified the process a little. Now I run a 6mm mandrel into the neck to true it. Then the cases are inside and outside chamfered. If you don't give a good chamfer you get an ugly ring on the mouth. Then they are run through a 22BR body die which has a .258" neck. I made another die with the chamber reamer which has a .254 neck, and that is next. Then the modified Zipper die at .250 and finally through the Redding neck die with .249" bushing, just because. This is all done at one time in a Hornady LNL with case feeder so it won't take long. I have one more hole left in the press so I think I'll make new .262" bushing to split the difference between the .268" starting diameter and the first .258 diameter I'm using now. That might help the runout, which isn't bad at around .003-.004". I've tried to set the dies up so there is a bit of a false shoulder and you can just feel the case as the bolt is closed. I'll send the Forster FL die in to be honed once I figure out what I want for neck tension, which may depend on if I turn necks after the first firing. I will anneal after the first firing, mainly because the cases came to me primed already and I don't want to punch them out.
 
Easy way is to get a Redding full length bushing die. You are not suppose to go more than 0.005 in one step. However in thise case it doesn't matter. I would go half the distance between 6mm to 22. Then one more final step. Then take a sinclair mandrel in 22 cal (it's 0.002 undersized) this will expand the neck out to 0.002 under the size of a 22 cal.

I could have sworn that when I tried the FL bushing die is gave the same results as the neck die. I must have had the bushing stop adjusted wrong because I just tried it again and found that is does seem to size all the way to the shoulder. So I may have gone out of my way, but I learned a bit, got to try honing to a target dia, and now I have a multiple die set that will pump out a properly necked down case with reasonable runout every time I pull the handle. Thanks for the reminder that made me go back and re-visit it.
 
From my experience with Lapua 6BR brass, I would think that skim turning the necks on virgin brass would be beneficial. That way you could cull any 'bad' cases from the start and more uniform neck thickness would make the subsequent sizing down operations more uniform.
Neck turning can be done on primed cases (carefully).
A second neck turning operation after final sizing to 22 cal might be beneficial also to accuracy as necks will tend to thicken a bit much.
 








 
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