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Gunsmithing Lathe dilema, Which one???

Kiwi 'smith Dean

Cast Iron
Joined
Jan 13, 2011
Location
Tauranga, New Zealand.
Hi Guys, just wondered if any of you could help me out with some info if you have used or own any of the following lathes:

Grizzly G0509G (Chinese) 16x40"

Turret RML-1440 (Taiwanese) (made by Shun Chuan company) 14x40"

I am professional gunsmithing, in NZ. (Grad CST in Colorado, 1997).

I know there are a bunch of threads of this site and Benchrest.com about this subject, but some of them are a little dated. I was just after some more up to date info.

Both machines have a 52mm (2") spindle bore. The G0509G has a standard spindle length through the headstock of about 20.5 inches. The Turret RML1440 has a spindle length of about 617mm (@25"), but there is a fair bit of excess that could be cut off, to bring it back to about 20", which would be preferrable. Just means running it with the end cover removed.....

I have seen some of the similar model Chinese machines here (sold under various names), and the tailstock wheel only seems to be graduated in metric, whereas most of the other dials seem to have dual/metric graduations. BUT, one revolution of the cross-slide on the chinese machines here seems to be about 0.197", not 0.200" as you would want/expect. No real biggy, but just a bug-bear. The tailstock graduations issue is another matter though for chambering, as I like to be able to use an accurate dial reading on the tailstock wheel for setting final chamber reaming depth.

Basically, I already own a good quality Taiwanese TD1340 with a 40mm (1 9/16" bore), so just want something with a slightly larger spindle bore, and really good high grade headstock bearings for the action truing and match barrel fitting that I am doing alot more of now than I was a few years ago. As this will be a second lathe, there is not much point buying something that is similar to or 'less than' what I already have now.

Has anyone out there had any dramas with the big Grizzly Chinese gunsmith lathe, or can shed any light on the dial situation? Maybe the machines made for the US market have different lead screws and cross slide/tailstock screws to the rest that are made for the 'metric' market?

Does anyone own one of the Taiwanese RML-1440 models for gunsmithing (or general machining work) and who can comment favourably or otherwise on how it has been for them?

It's a long way to get a lathe shipped to New Zealand, so I just want to be sure before I confirm my order, with which ever company I decide to run with.

I know a buch of guys over there must own the Grizzly 4003g (i think thats the number??) gunsmithing lathe, but if we could keep replies limited to experiences with the G0509G that would be appreciated.

What would you recommend?

Thanks,

Dean. :)
 
What do we suggest?

I suggest you shouldn't expect this site to tolerate you discussing cheap Chinese machine tools, that are basically a kit that you first disassemble and shake out the casting sand, grind off the casting flash, use bondo to fill the voids (and hide the bolt that was dropped into the crucible, but didn't get time to melt). You get to make photocopies of the data plates before the coolant melts the ink. You get to rebush the shakey bushings, and recut the divisions on the handwheels, actually you get to remove the plastic strip that has the divisions printed on it, and THEN cut the divisions on the handwheel.

You would be much better off printing "lathe wanted" flyers and knocking on the door of every fab shop, machine shop, mold-making shop within an hour's drive.

You don't need or desire metric threading, right? Just inch threading?

You know what you need in dimensions.
You know what you need in power requirement.
You know what you can spend.
You know who can help you move the lathe.

And you know your phone number and email address.

Print up that flyer, go knocking on doors and ask if you can hang the flyer up in the breakroom.

If you have done this for fifty locations, and not one decent machine worth your consideration has been found, then come back and demand an apology from me.

Good Luck,
Steve
 
I'm going to put in my 2 cents on the tailstock, in my experience, the tailstock handwheel dial that a lot of the machines are coming with now are not accurate at all, so I wouldn't worry about that. I tell people to forget they are even there. Especially if you're talking chamber reaming, I dont use it for a roughing hole. Best ways I know, are count revolutions in 1in of tailstock barrel travel, then figure how much per revolution, keep track of youre spot and that's great. 2, put a digital scale on it, my favorite. 3, put a dial indicator on the tailstock and make a plate for the barrel. As for the lathes I have no idea.
 
Dean - While Steve's "welcome" to your first post may be a little brusque, he is quite correct that discussion of cheap Asian import machinery isn't allowed on this site. His description of the issues involved is a bit exaggerated, but not by much. There are many discussion groups on the 'net devoted to these machines, and the issues are well documented in those. G's once vaunted customer service appears to be slipping quite a bit with the number of machines they have out there now. Basically, you will need to go thru the machine as if it was a used machine. Why pay extra for that?

Being in New Zealand, I suspect your options may be a bit more limited than those of us living in North America. I also suspect that dealing with G's customer service issues from that distance would not be fun either.

Just my US$0.02,
Patrick
 
Oh, god! I do get sick of the "no discussion" bullsheet. The guy's in business. He needs a practical answer for a practical question on PRACTICAL Machinist. All he gets is "buy a used bugger" (wait... it's coming). :angry:
 
Oh, god! I do get sick of the "no discussion" bullsheet.

Well, it's the "house rules". This ain't my house, so I play by the owner's rules. Don't like it, go play somewhere else. Like I said, plenty of places to get the information. It's a big internet.

The guy's in business. He needs a practical answer for a practical question on PRACTICAL Machinist. All he gets is "buy a used bugger"

Yep - he's in business and doesn't need to waste time debugging a new machine (or dealing with an overwhelmed custom service dept. half a world away). I went thru the same decision process last year and wound up buying a used Sheldon for half the price. Still had to go thru the machine, but at least I wasn't starting with crap.

For an example, G came out with a new "benchtop" mill late '09. Sold a bunch of 'em. On the second production run, the electronics were crap. DC motors and motor controllers with life span measured in minutes. Replacement motors are backordered 'cause the last shipment is going to replace motors on in-stock machines. A lot of guys on a certain CNC forum tho't it would be a great candidate for conversion. The travails are pretty well documented there.

Doesn't mean that you can't get a serviceable machine from G, but it's increasingly a crap shoot. Life's too short...

Patrick
 
My friend is a professional gunsmith and he does just fine with a 14 x 40 Grizzly. You should have no problems with a 16 x 40.
 
I'm the author of that diatribe, and I can't say "I approve this message".

It is a bit shrill, sorry.

However, if a person was to go knocking on the doors of welding shops, fab shops, shipyards, etc. someone will know something about a lathe, somewhere.

All ships have a machine shop, if/when a ship is being dismantled or broken, you should go find out about the machine shop.

You could also contact auctioneers that settle estates, see what they could tell you.

The nice stuff doesn't have to be advertised, it goes to family, friends, and people who have made their own luck.

And the rest goes on ebay :)


If you go that route of canvassing, you would probably like to have an answer for "What are you looking for?".

Okay....

Toolmex
Polamco
Andrychow
Famot
Cazeneuve
A Rockwell 14 by 41 "square head"
Standard Modern
Perhaps an American Turnmaster 15 by 50. Avoid the 13 by 40s, seems the gearboxes are weak and cannot survive a crash.
Clausing Colchester
Probably not a Clausing Metosa
Probably not a Clausing Atlas
Webb
Takisawa
Nardini
Weiler
Graziano
Monarch or Lodge and Shipley from the mid 60's
Clausing 5900 or 6900
A Harrison M300 M350 M400
Southbend Turnado
A Do-All 13x40 is possibly a rebadged Harrison M300
Romi
Do-All/Romi
Hwacheon - Whacheon Milacron says:
Not your average lathe.
Victor
Sharp
Kingston
Togim
Maxturn


Stay away from Zubal, the lead screws tend to bend/twist and the brake system is built into the motor.
Steer clear of South Bend Nordics. Not because they are bad lathes, but because they have an almost impossible to fix clutch/brake system.
Whatever it is, don't expect to find a threading dial for it, or the chart for the threading dial, or the steady rest, follower rest, etc. If someone says "It has both rests, threading dial is there, manuals are there....." keep listening.

The other members should correct or add to what ever I have posted here. I understand this short list as good advice, not just for you, but for me, since I am also in the market for a lathe.
 
Ask your question here for more balance in the responses.
Gunsmiths Corner

You can also search the forum there for enough information to keep you busy reading for a couple of days.

You'll find commentary about Chinese lathes that are turning out precision rifles, barely any argument about lathes manufactured in Taiwan, and the old saw to Buy Real Steel Made in the USA, mostly from people repeating what everyone else had read or heard a thousand times. If you look long enough, you'll find former members of that last group that bought in, and then found out that buying a clapped out US made machine was folly.

You'll also find lots of comments that gunsmithing lathes don't need to have particular pristine ways full length, or hold the most precision possible, from owners of used US made machines!

A few people will report that they got tired of trying to find a usable used machine, and finally bought what they could afford, whch by that time was a Jet, Grizzly, Precision Matthews, or one of a couple others. If they have a universal complaint, it will be about the poor quality of Chinese motors, and are generally happy once the motor is swapped out, probably for a 3 phase motor.

There is no comparison to the Chicom equipment being imported now compared to 10 or 12 years ago, although there has been no noticeable change in machines sold by Harbor Freight (i.e., Tools for Fools), Northern Hydraulic, and so on.

Watch the sales of of few of the folks that post here to get a calibration of their commitment to their convictions about Chinese machine tools that they write about.
 
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thanks

Thanks guys for the prompt replies received so far, keep 'em coming.....

And to Mr Bausch, thanks for the 'baptism of fire' into the world of posting on PM.com........ Maybe all the snow up that part of the world at the moment has got you in a bad mood? But no problem, now that I have got back onto my chair after having a good laugh!! :cheers: You do make a few good points, though I wasn't aware of any 'rules' about not mentioning imported machinery on this site? Does someone have an issue with freedom of speech??

One of the guys is right though, I don't have a huge amount of time to spend searching, and the used machinery market is pretty small here. What do you expect when the population of the entire country is only about 4 mil.?
Therefore, I am basically looking for new, or 'as-new' machinery only.

I'm still keen to hear from helpful fellow machinists or gunsmiths though. Send me a private message if you don't want to join in the thread.

(I tried to register on Benchrest.com but that function on their site is currently down.)

Thanks, Dean.
 
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Papatrot,
Where in the hell did you get the rules that you are spouting? This forum is to help people. Why don't you go back to finance and leave the machining and gunsmithing to people in the know?
He is asking a valid question. If you have nothing to contribute, just suggest he do a search.
Sorry Dean, we are not all A$$holes.
Butch
 
Dean,
I think you will be very happy with G0509G that being said I will ask why?
I have a Grizzly G4003G and it chambers my match barrels with up to 1.375" tenons. Action work is done either in a fixture or on spindles, with no need of a larger bore than 1.5".
The next action that needs doing will motivate my fabrication of a new truing fixture mounted directly to a D1-5 chuck back (excuse needed to spend time and money).
For a picture of a good fixture go to:
Gre-Tan Rifles
and scroll down the page.
I found that while I was initially happy with my G4003G the single phase motor supplied failed and was replaced after the warranty period for free, after the second motor went Tango Uniform I spent about $700 replacing the single phase motor with a three phase motor and adding a VFD and replacing the original V-belts with PowerTwist link belts. At that time I also added about 600lbs of lead to the base the difference those changes made was amazing!
A bigger machine is nice but not a requirement my guru a master machinist/ gunsmith of 40+ years has 4 lathes a 10" Hercus, 2 Emco Maximat 10's and a 15" X 80" rebadged Italian Bridgeport. The Hercus is used for a shelf and project storage, the large Bridgeport only gets the long match barrels but the 2 Emco's account for over 200 barrel chamberings a year.
Take your time do your research, the link to "Benchrest" is a good one. Grizzly is pretty good in my book with their service and warranty which is important considering your location I reside in Anchorage Alaska, NZ is another order of magnitude out of the mainstream.
Good Luck
Abe
 
Dean - While Steve's "welcome" to your first post may be a little brusque, he is quite correct that discussion of cheap Asian import machinery isn't allowed on this site. His description of the issues involved is a bit exaggerated, but not by much. There are many discussion groups on the 'net devoted to these machines, and the issues are well documented in those. G's once vaunted customer service appears to be slipping quite a bit with the number of machines they have out there now. Basically, you will need to go thru the machine as if it was a used machine. Why pay extra for that?

Being in New Zealand, I suspect your options may be a bit more limited than those of us living in North America. I also suspect that dealing with G's customer service issues from that distance would not be fun either.

Just my US$0.02,
Patrick

I think a 16" swing lathe comes in a little bigger then the home shop grade small machines that are mentioned in the guidelines, I have seen several threads on larger Asian machines left to run their coarse.
James
 
Hi Barty,

Good question. I have 3 phase in my shop, but our system here is 400v 50hz. (230v 50hz on single phase.) I also have done my trades in Electrical, refrigeration and engineering before I got into gunsmithing, so we may just rework the existing electrics if possible (may cause @ 20% motor speed reduction), or simply replace the chinese motor completely with a better quality one here. Either way, no big hassle. The same chinese machines are sold here on the local market under different names, they just don't have a few of the special features that Grizz offer on that model. Thanks.
 
Precision Matthews

Just found out, the machine sold here in NZ under the 'Turret' name is the same machine as the PM RML-1440 lathe, which is listed on their site.

So this may make it a bit easier to get some feedback from someone in the US who owns one of those?

Thanks,

Dean.

:typing:
 
Personally I think that it is better to try and buy a new machine locally. While I understand that the NZ market is small and there is not much available locally I believe that it is just too much hassle to buy equipment from overseas.

I recently looked at buying a manual lathe and thought about buying from the US as there is a larger variety there than here in Thailand. After considering the bother with arranging shipping, imports, voltage differences, time zone differences and warranty issues I decided that it was easier to by one locally.

I ended up buying a Kinwa 430 x 1100. It cost about USD 10,000. I cannot give you an honest opinion on the lathe yet as it will be delivered sometime this coming week. I looked at many different web sites including PM and found that there are enough people liking them that I figured it was a good quality lathe for what I needed to do. If you do a search for Kinwa or Kingston you will find a few threads about them here on PM. It seems that everyone that owns one likes them.

Do you have a website for your business? I head back to Whakatane a few times a year and knowing a local gunsmith would be useful.

John
 








 
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