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Is the "Ghost Gunner" CNC machine harmful to the machining/gunsmith industry?

MetalCarnage

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Is the "Ghost Gunner" CNC machine harmful to the machining/gunsmith industry?

That $1,200 Machine for Making Untraceable Guns Just Sold Out in 36 Hours | WIRED

https://ghostgunner.net/

I'm not so sure all the attention this little box is getting is a "good thing". First of all, there is a lot of hand wringing and mis-information out that about just what it is capable of (and we all know how the anti-gunners feed on/get their panties in a bunch with mis-information). Second, it's not going to be too long before some hippie pin head puts two and two together and figures out that people with readily available equipment can make their own "untraceable" firearms (at home if so desired). I can see someone calling for "more government oversight" of anyone who buys the raw materials or purchases metalworking equipment.

Personally I think it's a slick little marketable "gimmick" (but only because I came up with it a couple of weeks ago and am now too late to get something to market ;)). I can't imagine why I'd buy one as I could get a couple of well made guns just for the price of the box but hey, if it sells.... :D

FWIW

-Ron
 
Wowsers, a CNC mill for $1200.00. If it is a good machine that does not tear it's gut out on the first part you make with it, that is quite a deal. I bought 2 used bench CNC mils about 15 years ago. I paid about $15,000 for the pair. They are accurate production mills with fast manual tool change.
$1200 for a mill that can make a reciever out of "billet", I got to say it again, Wowsers! If the thing was capable of G code programing I might get one for non gun production parts.
 
We all know it's a POS mill. All it's doing is taking 80% blanks and drilling holes, milling FCG pockets, and what not. I'm sure the spindle won't be rigid enough for a larger quantity, and surely for nothing tougher than 6061.

I set up a friend's gun shop with a CNC mill for engraving, logo-branding, and light milling of soft materials. It was some Taig with Mach3, and I think when all was said and done, I ran him up a $5k billl and he had the full package to do his own CAD drawing (old free version of TurboCAD iirc) and a couple DXF g-code generators for 3d surfacing, engraving, each.

This thing is clown shoes.

And yes, I do think it hurts the firearm-interested public. There is absolutely nothing illegal about what this machine lets people do. I have a moral opposition to anyone who thinks a fundamental-right is ok "only if a certain class of people do it". By saying "well only rich people can own these (NFA)" or "Only people with skills and education can do it (GCA home-manufacturing) " is a terrible bigotry and classism that starts to "Grade" people like a Caste system. As if Civil Rights were only good for SOME people. Ok, enough of this tangent.

Yes, shit like this just scares the people ignorant of the current state of things. We've gotten along fine for centuries with people making their own guns from kits and parts. The AR15 design, even those commercially available are older than some grandparents! Everything except the receiver is mail-orderable and it's always been legal to make your own receivers. Nothing has happened, nothing will happen.

I can't think of one instance of a mass murder or public shooting happening with a home-made firearm. Obviously the presence of some arbitrary numbers on the side of the part will have no effect on the potential for danger.

But SOME PEOPLE will get scared like they always do and it'll just force/encourage politicians to focus on this stupid issue instead of things that /really matter/.

I spent a number of years working in the firearm manufacturing world.

Maybe I'm biased. I don't think I'm wrong though. (surprise)

Edit-to-Add:
What is with the sarcasm surrounding "billet" ? It's not inaccurate. It's a raw semi-cubic hunk of metal straight from the mill (via resellers and maybe sawn to a size, but still a billet) - it's better than calling it a bar, because it might not be bar stock, might be made as a plate, might be cast, might be... "billet" is generic and nonspecific and works. It also differentiates between a receiver made from uniform-grain material-removed metal blocks rather than forgings with their grain-distorted and non-uniform metallurgy.
 
I hope everyone involved with this enterprise understands that most Federal convictions from Federal investigations are for lying to/obstruction of an investigation.

F'ing with the agent, leaving out details, etc. will tie you up in court until you go broke, lose your job, your marriage, etc.
 
Edit-to-Add:
What is with the sarcasm surrounding "billet" ? It's not inaccurate. It's a raw semi-cubic hunk of metal straight from the mill (via resellers and maybe sawn to a size, but still a billet) - it's better than calling it a bar, because it might not be bar stock, might be made as a plate, might be cast, might be... "billet" is generic and nonspecific and works. It also differentiates between a receiver made from uniform-grain material-removed metal blocks rather than forgings with their grain-distorted and non-uniform metallurgy.

I think its from all the idiot car guys who can't wait to accessorize with the latest "billet" accessory, there's a lot of gun guys who do it too. Its form/function take a backseat to the fact that it was machined out of a piece of solid and (usually) left unfinished or anodized.

That said I think its some genius marketing by Defense Distributed, who seem to capitalize on the media frenzy any time they can sensationalize a title without any thought or content.

I've seen a dozen sensationalist titles about this machine and I'd bet a lot of money it can't hold a candle to the 30+ year old Lagun CNC in my shop. Furthermore, how often are crimes actually committed with AR rifles anyways? I can't really see a large, hard to hide rifle as being the go-to for some thug that wants to hold up a convenience store or shoot someone via drive-by, nevermind the fact that the 80+% of the guns used in crimes are stolen anyways, not untraceable.
 
If it is a good machine that does not tear it's gut out on the first part you make with it,

:D:D:D (I swear there used to be a smiley that blew coffee onto the computer screen whilst laughing...)


We all know it's a POS mill. All it's doing is taking 80% blanks and drilling holes, milling FCG pockets, and what not. I'm sure the spindle won't be rigid enough for a larger quantity, and surely for nothing tougher than 6061.

Agree 100%. It's the "plug & play" aspect of it. If anything, this is validation that there's a market for pre-loading POS bench-top CNC's with programs to make popular objects, and including the tools/locking any code overwriting facilities so there is nothing for the user to contribute. But I have to ask what the point is. If you as a machinist want something like 5 finicky nylon washers made, you'll set up a versatile machine (lathe) to produce the part. You wouldn't buy a dedicated machine to make the washers only.

So this CNC is the complete opposite of everything sustainability and practicality stand for, from a manufacturing perspective. Wouldn't it be nice to throw inhibition and sense to the wind and dream up a product that would appeal to the masses like this?

What is with the sarcasm surrounding "billet" ?

Anyone using the term "billet" usually uses it in a context that implies it has some ethereal quality. They don't necessarily know that it designates a size smaller than a bloom but larger than an ingot, but only that it's a better (by unknown metrics) material to make a valve cover out of.
 
I went back to the site then saw 80% recievers so the mill in the box could be gutless. No description of the spindle so it could be a Chinese knock of dremel tool.
I put billet in quotation marks because the way it is used today is meaning less. But billet is easier to type than "chunk of rectangular aluminum bar stock".
 
Is the "Ghost Gunner" CNC machine harmful to the machining/gunsmith industry?

I think this is a debatable question, but I do see it as being potentially damaging to the gunsmiths doing so for personal use. I think there's a chance there will be more Laws and Penal Codes enforced because of the Ghost Gunner.

Also, the Ghost Gunner has sold, but hasn't delivered those products yet. There is something to be said for being in business, meet your demands, but more so supply what people have bought. To do this at the end of the year and show a profit after taxes, does take some smarts, so the Ghost Gunner does need to prove themselves in that regard.

I'm sure it could be a profitable and lucrative business, but it's also worth nothing that others are sure to come to market with a "better mouse trap" when a lot of mice show up.

I don't know if it will harm the industry or not, but in regard to attracting the eyes of both the Government and the Antis, there is chance to be harmed with more taxes, bureaucracy, and even *gasp* Laws/Penal Codes. My $0.02...

There is some humor in someone mocking DeLeon...hehehhe...in that regard, priceless...Just hope it doesn't come at the expense of "we the people".
 
could be no more then smoke and mirrors
they show a box and a finished part but not the in between.
could be like the BD5 kit airplanes

I'm not so sure about the "smoke and mirrors" as this articles states...

On Wednesday, Cody Wilson’s libertarian non-profit Defense Distributed revealed the Ghost Gunner, a $1,200 computer-controlled (CNC) milling machine designed to let anyone make the aluminum body of an AR-15 rifle at home, with no expertise, no regulation, and no serial numbers. Since then, he’s sold more than 200 of the foot-cubed CNC mills—175 in the first 24 hours. That’s well beyond his expectations; Wilson had planned to sell only 110 of the machines total before cutting off orders.
To keep up, Wilson says he’s now raising the price for the next round of Ghost Gunners by $100. He has even hired another employee to add to Defense Distributed’s tiny operation. That makes four staffers on the group’s CNC milling project, an offshoot of its larger mission to foil gun control with digital DIY tools.

I'd still like to see more details on the box itself as their description of it as a "general-purpose CNC mill" leaves a lot to the imagination and tells us nothing of it's actual capabilities.

While the Ghost Gunner is a general-purpose CNC mill, capable of automatically carving polymer, wood, and metal in three dimensions, Defense Distributed has marketed its machine specifically as a tool for milling the so-called lower receiver of an AR-15, which is the regulated body of that semi-automatic rifle. The gun community has already made that task far easier by selling so-called “80-percent lowers,” blocks of aluminum that need only a few holes and cavities milled out to become working lower receivers.

-Ron
 
The quality of his products isn't really the point. It's his way of protesting. It only has to produce something functional. You've got to admit, Cody Wilson's got balls. He slaps the anti-gunners in the face and doesn't run, all in his commitment to his beliefs. Bravo!
 
Whilst not relating exactly to the article linked, it seems much of the media is awash with 'anti-gunism'.

Libtard anti gun campaigns are always in the media.

Responsible, Costitutional Gun Ownership is a thing which , to me anyway, represents, in some way, true Freedom.

The US stands as a beacon to the World on this.

Here in the UK, if you are threatened by a criminal with a gun, you have 2 options...

1) Lie down, roll over and do exactly as the nasty man says.

2)Call the police who will speed to you in a mere 2 hours.

3)Attempt self-defence with...erm, I am not sure what is still legal here, erm... a potato?
 
.........................
I've seen a dozen sensationalist titles about this machine and I'd bet a lot of money it can't hold a candle to the 30+ year old Lagun CNC in my shop. Furthermore, how often are crimes actually committed with AR rifles anyways?...................

Crimes committed with rifles are so few that the FBI just lumps them all together under "Rifles" and doesn't even bother to count them by type.

Plus, I hate to be a speed bump in the path of hysterical anti-gun nut cases, but, in most states including North Carolina, if you want a completely untraceable AR-15 or any other rifle, you stand between the parking lot and the front door of a gun show, approach the guy bringing his AR-15 to the show to privately sell, give him money, he gives you rifle and you walk away. No tiny CNC machine needed.

Steve
 
I don't understand why you just wouldn't go down to the gun shop (pawnbroker) and BUY a lower for $90. Now, I can understand buying this thing as a toy, or as most of us have grown-up now say, a hobby. If I build a lower from scratch, I am going to put my initials and a number on it, probably more than that. This thing might turn out to be an acceptable engraver for gun parts.

Art
 
Crimes committed with rifles are so few that the FBI just lumps them all together under "Rifles" and doesn't even bother to count them by type.

Plus, I hate to be a speed bump in the path of hysterical anti-gun nut cases, but, in most states including North Carolina, if you want a completely untraceable AR-15 or any other rifle, you stand between the parking lot and the front door of a gun show, approach the guy bringing his AR-15 to the show to privately sell, give him money, he gives you rifle and you walk away. No tiny CNC machine needed.

Steve

The same group scared of home-made firearms are likely the same group who want mandatory 4473s for personal transfers as well. But yes, that's the current easiest/best way if you want a gun that has no paperwork pointing to you.

Of course, that's the law abiding way. Those with malicious intent would just steal a gun, as evidenced by the 18 year old violent felon recently shot by an off duty cop in St Louis. Guy was a felon. Guy was on house arrest. Guy possessed a stolen weapon. Guy shot at a cop. Which law was going to prevent that, again? The very possession of a firearm is already illegal for a man like that. It wasn't even legal for him to LEAVE his HOME. It's already illegal to shoot cops. So yea, I guess if we make a law that asks people to head to the local gun shop or police station and fill out a 4473, it'll stop all that from happening. :rolleyes5:
 
Rep. Mike Honda of California just introduced new legislation to regulate "home built" firearms. What a twit! Anyway, here's a great article by Jeff Knox (NRA) that puts things in perspective - Do-it-yourself 2nd Amendment

I posted about this last week: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/gunsmithing/brown-vetos-sb-808-california-291940/

Thing is, since Brown veto'd SB 808, that doesn't set good precedence for H.R. 5606.

Bottom line is that there were provisions put into the GCA68 to allow unlicensed individuals the right to manufacturer for personal use, and eventually that has to come back to the SCOTUS for review. Reason I mention that is because Heller vs. D.C. ruled that State law can''t override Federal Law. In that sense the States can't continue to add their own Penal Codes to prevent people from exercising those Federal 2A Rights.

Why I mentioned above (in this thread) we could be hurt by legislation might not have been clear. What I meant by that is that it takes time for the courts to hear and make a decision on any given case. There are many gun related court cases that had been put in place waiting for the Heller vs. D.C. to be decided. This is how Alan Gotlieb explained it (attorney responible for the case, and representing the 2A Foundation). Given the amount of time it takes, even if the premise that our 2A rights hold true over State restrictions, the time it takes to bring into effect will be time suffered amongst the people. And that is if it EVER takes place as the attorneys on each side will continue to drag things out that much further. Point being that even though some laws are changing, it doesn't mean things will change over night, and during this duration, the people will suffer from the bad laws being passed, IMO.

Not that it matters, but the McDonald case in Chicago was also a part of the Gotlieb cases, as were a couple in California. But if you look how long the Heller case was decided, and then look at how long it took to come into effect (just a couple months ago), it starts to set in how long it takes to get changes to 2A related issues.

If the Ghost Gunner causes a caustic reaction from the antis, it could take a long time to overturn. That duration will be time "we the people" suffer. That will be true for each different state and depend on how they view 2A and if the Ghost Gunner has an effect on state law.

My $0.02...
 








 
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