Homemade Pistol in Mich., How to register?

I am getting ready to start on my PPS43 pistol project. But I have gotten mixed info on the proper way to register it. The local Sheriff dept. where I go to register my handguns said the State Police need to stamp ID numbers on it. I informed them that the BATF only required that I stamp ; Gun name, the caliber, My name, City and State and a unique set of number to the gun. She then said if that is all the BATF wants then that would be OK with them.
Any one done this in Michigan before?
Thanks
Jeff

Interesting question. Don't you have to have it Proofed by an official SAAMI test facility?

"Interesting question. Don't you have to have it Proofed by an official SAAMI test facility?"
No,this is not required. BATTF does not require you to register a homemade hand gun for personnel use. But the state laws can and do differ. And the State laws over rule the feds on gun issues. Example, Michigan just recently allow registered full auto firearms. But they still do not allow SBRs ( Short Barreled Rifles)
Jeff

MidMich said:

I am getting ready to start on my PPS43 pistol project.

I informed them that the BATF only required that I stamp ; Gun name, the caliber, My name, City and State and a unique set of number to the gun.

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You might try asking this on WeaponsGuild -- there are a bunch of PPS43 builds there.

htp://www.weaponsguild.com

My understanding is that your name, city/state, and unique ID (which have to be a specific size/depth) is only required if you sell the weapon. But obviously you need some kind of unique ID to identify the weapon for registration.

Not trying to hijack the thread, but......... this raises an interesting question that I have had for a while.

With a "home made" or "house built" weapon of any kind, starting from a chunk of steel, at what point is it "legally" considered a firearm? ?

Obviously a hunk of 4140 laying on the floor is just a doorstop, but when in the machining / building process does it become a weapon? Kinda like some of the TV shows where they toss a hunk of steel into a VMC and let it do it's thing, and voila you end up with a 1911. (or at least part of one.) When do you have to register it?.

I do do some machine work for a buddy who is a collector. He brings me pieces and parts with specifc instructions on what he wants done to them. As far as I am concearned they are just pieces of metal to be machined and not weapons as they are presented to me to be worked on. Am I wrong?

Frank

KB3AHE said:

Not trying to hijack the thread, but......... this raises an interesting question that I have had for a while.

With a "home made" or "house built" weapon of any kind, starting from a chunk of steel, at what point is it "legally" considered a firearm? ?

Obviously a hunk of 4140 laying on the floor is just a doorstop, but when in the machining / building process does it become a weapon? Kinda like some of the TV shows where they toss a hunk of steel into a VMC and let it do it's thing, and voila you end up with a 1911. (or at least part of one.) When do you have to register it?.

I do do some machine work for a buddy who is a collector. He brings me pieces and parts with specifc instructions on what he wants done to them. As far as I am concearned they are just pieces of metal to be machined and not weapons as they are presented to me to be worked on. Am I wrong?

Frank

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Most gun parts can be made or modified without concern, and if it if was made before 1898 almost anything goes.
The catch is if the reciever or frame is present in your shop and owner is not, its assumed the gun is transfered into your posession, even if you dont touch it.
If you charge for the work (barter, trade, whatever), or do it on machinery that is part of a business, then it could be construed as gunsmithing and require a federal licence.

Its a tough one to get around because most parts of a gun are assembled to the reciever.

The reciever or frame (usualy the serial numbered part of the gun) is the "gun".

KB3AHE said:

With a "home made" or "house built" weapon of any kind, starting from a chunk of steel, at what point is it "legally" considered a firearm? ?

Obviously a hunk of 4140 laying on the floor is just a doorstop, but when in the machining / building process does it become a weapon?

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Short answer: if it's close to a complete receiver (the part the ATF considers a weapon), then you need a ruling/letter from the ATF clarifying.

This comes up all the time with the 0%, 20%, 80% receivers. A raw forging (0 - 20%) is clearly a paperweight. When you start getting into the 80% range, you need clarification from ATF.

Midmich: Is it necessary to "register" it in Michigan?. It's my understanding that the Federal law on handgun registration lapsed a few years ago. In Indiana, the local law enforcement say it is not necessary. I don't know about Michigan.

JH

Michigan still requires it. I am just getting different answers on who stamps it, The State Police or myself. I am a long time member of the Weapons Guild and no there has been able to give me a answer on this. The BATF requirement are min. 1/16" high and .003" in depth on the stamping.
Jeff

With a "home made" or "house built" weapon of any kind, starting from a chunk of steel, at what point is it "legally" considered a firearm?

I think the ATF has intentionally been vague on when material becomes a firearm. I do not think they will give you a ruling that will answer your question. But it can't hurt to ask (I don't think.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't registering defeat the whole purpose of a home-made weapon. "Big Brother" can't take what they don't know about

JidoukaSS said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't registering defeat the whole purpose of a home-made weapon. "Big Brother" can't take what they don't know about

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No. No correction is necessary. Carry on.

You can buy a new PPS43 that has been demiled. and then if you remove or disable the folding stock, add a denial bar, modify the bolt from fixed firing pin to hammer moved firing pin,machine a denial slot in the top of the bolt, weld in the missing sections of the upper receiver, remove the full auto firing from open bolt FCG and replace it with a fires from closed bolt FCG and you to can have a legal semi auto PPS43 pistol. Keep the folding stock and it becomes a SBR short barreled rifle, if they are legal in your state ( not in Michigan) you then go through the same paper work as if it is a full auto with the BATF. Or you can just add a 16.25" barrel and it becomes a legal carbine, but now it falls under rule 922r where only 10 or less of the parts on the BATF list can be used if they are not american made. Some states do not require you to register a handgun. Michigan does.
Jeff

MidMich said:

I am getting ready to start on my PPS43 pistol project. But I have gotten mixed info on the proper way to register it. The local Sheriff dept. where I go to register my handguns said the State Police need to stamp ID numbers on it. I informed them that the BATF only required that I stamp ; Gun name, the caliber, My name, City and State and a unique set of number to the gun. She then said if that is all the BATF wants then that would be OK with them.
Any one done this in Michigan before?
Thanks
Jeff

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Jeff,

I just did one about a couple months ago. If you have a CPL fill out the RI-060. You are the seller and the purchaser.

Manufacturer = your name
Serial Number = What ever you want it to be or " " (there is no requirement to have a S/N on a firearm you made! However, without one how do you prove it's yours?)
Caliber = If fixed caliber state it, else "VARIOUS" My AR pistol is listed as "VARIOUS"
Shots = Max REASONABLE capacity if removable mag.
Type = Pistol
Barrel length = length from Muzzle to breach when closed.
Model # = What ever you want it to be or "NA". Again there is NO requirement to have a Model # on a firearm you made!

Take it in drop it off. You don't have to engage them in conversation if you don't wish. However, I usually leave them with my phone # in-case (WHEN) they have questions. The one that always hangs them up is the Manufacturer. YOU are NOT in their list of codes and they have no clue what to do. The manufacturer code is "ZZZ" followed by your name. Then they have to phone the MSP.

I have NOT seen a "License to purchase a pistol" in so long I have don't know what may or my not be on one but you should be able to glean the needed info from above.

You only have a short time from when you finish the "FIREARM" (in your case the lower) until you HAVE to register (I don't recall the time off the top of my head, SO I would advise no more than 10 days). It does NOT need to be assembled nor do you even need to have all the parts. Once you have it to a point where the FCG can be installed it IS a firearm.

To be CRYSTAL clear. BATF has NO REQUIREMENT for marking a self-made firearm. ALL requirements for "Markings" pertain ONLY to manufacture for sale. HOWEVER, I think if you are going to make a firearm you should at least have enough pride in your work to put your name on it. PERSONALLY I put my name on EVERY firearm I make along with a S/N for identification (My birthday: DdMmYy-X where X is a running number). I rarely mark a "model" (pistols only and only sometimes) and have NEVER marked city OR state (so far).

IF you EVER sell a self-made firearm (I advise against it) the markings you listed above IS REQUIRED prior to sale.

KB3AHE said:

With a "home made" or "house built" weapon of any kind, starting from a chunk of steel, at what point is it "legally" considered a firearm? ?

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It becomes a firearm when the action can be closed and made to fire. Allegedly! In practice it is a much more complicated question. For example an AR lower IS the firearm. There IS no actio to close up because it is not dependent on the upper. BATFE has repeatedly ruled that when any marking or machining (drilling, milling...) BEGINS on the FCG it becomes a firearm. The same would be true for a 1911 frame (and many others) or an AK receiver... Best to consider that the first scribed line or mark indicating any operation on a fire control part and you now have a firearm.

HOWEVER, my OPINION on this matter means NOTHING!!! Only a Director level or higher at the BATFE can issue an "opinion" that means anything.

KB3AHE said:

When do you have to register it?.

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There is NOT federal requirement to register a self-made firearm. It is ILLEGAL to self make an NFA item. Registration or not would then fall to the State laws.

ALSO NOTE: It may or may not be legal in some states to make your own firearms. I am NOT a lawyer and give you ONLY one piece of legal advice... KNOW the laws that apply to YOU before starting to build ANY firearm!!!

KB3AHE said:

I do do some machine work for a buddy who is a collector. He brings me pieces and parts with specifc instructions on what he wants done to them. As far as I am concearned they are just pieces of metal to be machined and not weapons as they are presented to me to be worked on. Am I wrong?

Frank

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Maybe... Maybe not... It all depends on the pieces and what you are doing to them. If he comes to you and tells you to drill a hole in an AR lower at one particular location, you could do 20 years to it!!! Again, KNOW the laws that apply to YOU before starting!

What I can do in MI could well land you in jail in MD.

MidMich said:

Michigan still requires it. I am just getting different answers on who stamps it, The State Police or myself. I am a long time member of the Weapons Guild and no there has been able to give me a answer on this. The BATF requirement are min. 1/16" high and .003" in depth on the stamping.
Jeff

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YOU would "mark" it. It can be stamped, engraved or etched. See previous post on what is required (nothing).

Also I would direct you to the Michigan Gun Owners forum if you have any further questions. This has been asked and answered MANY times there. Since it is a State spicific site you will find information relevant to Michigan.

JidoukaSS said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't registering defeat the whole purpose of a home-made weapon. "Big Brother" can't take what they don't know about

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Depends on whether the intent is to hide something from "big brother" or to make something yourself... Michigan requires registration of handguns. If you acquire/build a handgun and don't register you COULD become Buba's girlfriend... Not telling anyone what to do... Just say'n

Hmmmmm................If the receiver is considered the weapon, without the barrel and other assorted pieces / parts it is still basically a paperweight. It would be pretty tough to shoot a bare, empty receiver. And since there is no way to do any ballistics tests on a receiver, one would think that a barrel would be a more critical item since it determines the gun's "fingerprint".

Kinda looks like there is no common sense factor in these laws. Actually I kinda thought the receiver is the determining part since they are all serial numbered and I believe have to be accounted for.

Thanks, guys for the info, you've basically confirmed what I thought.

Frank

"Take it in drop it off. You don't have to engage them in conversation if you don't wish. However, I usually leave them with my phone # in-case (WHEN) they have questions. The one that always hangs them up is the Manufacturer. YOU are NOT in their list of codes and they have no clue what to do. The manufacturer code is "ZZZ" followed by your name. Then they have to phone the MSP."
MIBill
Great information! I have a CPL and a FFL 03. Where do you drop it off at? A couple of years back I brought in three very old handguns (WWI)that I inherited for a "Safety Inspection" and to register them. Long Story short I thought I was going to be arrested. The law has changed where before you were required to bring the guns in for a Safety Inspection. Now it is illegal to bring a gun into the Sheriff dept. I have the Semi lower, bolt and a old demil upper. All I need to do is remove the cut off welded up stub barrel, Press in a denial ridge on the top, and add a new barrel, then weld the front shroud section back on and remove the folding stock.
Jeff

steve-l said:

Interesting question. Don't you have to have it Proofed by an official SAAMI test facility?

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Proofing is not required in the US.