Source for techincal info on button rifling barrels

I mentioned a while ago that I was getting into barrel making just for fun. I have 5 different sizes of buttons now and would like to find a book or paper that gives the information about exact blank bore sizes before rifling. A comparison would be thread forming or even thread rolling, as pre- forming sizes are pretty critical for high quality full threads.

It seems to me that various calibers would have reasonably comparable bore sizes assuming standard rifling heights. Apparently the height difference between the grooves and lands is not standardized, as I'm seeing many differences between brands.

Another related question is the OD of the blanks, it seems to me that if the wall thickness is too thin proper forming would be hit or miss, all these things might be written somewhere, or is it all proprietary?


Thanks in advance for any information anyone has related to button rifling.

I would say that you are probably spot on in that the various outfits that do make these commercially, have, like as not, worked out what they need for their stuff, by trial error and best estimate, followed by a pile of broken parts on the scrap heap, before they got worked out what they needed to do to get good results.

I think you have it on the nose as far as the thin walls thing. I likely read it somewhere that Redman's runs their tubes into a holder to run their buttons through to make liners.

I doubt there is much out there other than anecdotal info, and, if you get lucky, you may end up talking with someone that has some actual experience in it, unlike me.

Have you asked the button makers for their recommendations? It would seem to me, the place to start looking, if you cannot hook up directly with someone that does it a lot.

I have pondered getting some stuff together, but life interferes, and there is already two lifetimes worth of projects piled up...

Cheers
Trev

"I have pondered getting some stuff together, but life interferes, and there is already two lifetimes worth of projects piled up..."

Man, ain't that the truth! It's all about prioritizing at a certain point, and I think that's the reason behind retirement, so we can catch up.
Yes, I did ask the seller in Russia who sent the last 3 buttons, which are stuck in customs (Typical), they responded that there were instructions enclosed. They also asked me how I push the buttons through the blanks without staging, which makes me think they are not professional.

I use carbide push rods secured in the ram of a motor driven press, maximum 14" stroke.

OT
A lathe group I'm a member of is based in the UK, they actually think their government is superior because they don't allow guns in the hands of their "subjects". Got that today. Said America is the laughingstock of the world, yeah, the same America that saved their butts twice in the last century. I'm officially an enemy of monarchism now, human based monarchism anyway.

... based in the UK, they actually think their government is superior because they don't allow guns in the hands of their "subjects."

You can't fix stupid.

You can't fix stupid.

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OT again,
There is a lesson in this. 80-100 years ago guns were legal and much more commonly used and carried in England. The lies of progressive philosophy are so pervasive and corrosive that rights given by God can soon, in less than 100 years in that case, be taken away from the people.

#3 partsproduction
"the same America that saved their butts twice in the last century"
Well, here in the UK, we do not all believe that.
Nor do we all believe that the UK saved the world either.

Some of us in the UK do believe that the UK and US governments are lying through their teeth to their populations, whether citizens or subjects. And have been lying all through the period in question.

Some of us in the UK also believe that the reason these Governments succeed in this perpetual mendacity is that the kiddies, both sides of the Atlantic, get told lies from the time they start school until they leave school. These same kiddies then grow old and die without questioning, or, in many cases, even suspecting, the moonshine they have been sold.

#4 GGaskill
"You can't fix stupid."
No need for the Government to "fix stupid" when they have already ensured that they have "fixed" gullible and ignorant.

But hey, why worry? It's all OT.

The Governments are importing millions of loveable Muslims to ensure we are all safe. Just like they promised.

Some of us in the UK do believe that the UK and US governments are lying through their teeth

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Most Americans believe that, there is a shadow government behind the scenes which cares nothing about the lofty ideals the founding fathers expounded so eloquently and tried to guard for posterity. They knew wicked power hungry men would try to make slaves of Americans.

WW1 almost certainly would have had a much less acceptable outcome had America not entered, and she also worked to reduce the war reparations levied (France) on Germany that set he world up for the second round.

And at the very least WW2 would have gone on for another ten years had not the US joined the fray. No one in our government says outright that we won the war, it is just what most Americans believe from histories we have been handed down. There were a lot of lies told the people of America about the war before it started though, progressive lies.

People in the UK and Australia let their masters take their rights of self defense away, I'm 67, I've watched much of it happen at the same time certain progressives in America have tried to pull the same theft here.

But if your point is that such views are subjective I'd have to agree with that, the guys in England pity us for all the gun violence they imagine going on all over America, because they don't know that most of it happens in large cities which are "gun free". I've tried to tell them about it and they act like I'm making it up. What can I say to people who don't live here but think they know my country better than I do?

The people who are really lied to the most are the ones who listen to, and believe, the main stream media. I for one will never believe anything any news media reports again in my life, I've just seen the media lie far more often than telling real news. Making my own barrels is part of the whole mix of all this, the Constitution says I have the right, and it is the the law of the land. Not sharia law, not here, no!

partsproduction said:

I mentioned a while ago that I was getting into barrel making just for fun. I have 5 different sizes of buttons now and would like to find a book or paper that gives the information about exact blank bore sizes before rifling. A comparison would be thread forming or even thread rolling, as pre- forming sizes are pretty critical for high quality full threads.

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My first post, I signed up to try and help you.

I can not directly answer your question but may be of help anyway. If you look at some SAAMI prints, there is a dimension for minimum bore/rifling area. This may be useful for calculating a beginning bore. Or, try calling Dave Kiff over at Pacific Tool and Gauge down in White City, he may be able to help you. If I was doing this and couldn't find out directly, I would try the following. Make some 4-6" long blanks out of the material you wish to use. Bore them out in .001 increments, largest starting at button major diameter -.001". Smallest bored to minor diameter of button. Should only need 3-4 parts. Starting with the largest, push your button through. (edit) check for full contact, if not, do next size down, repeat (end edit). I believe that most button rifling is pull through. As far as thin wall goes, blanks are rifled at full diameter then turned to profile afterwards. The blanks that we use are 1.032" for both .22 and .30 cal barrels. and turned to under an inch when profiled.

Good luck, Grumpy.

Thank you for your input Grumpy.
For the record, my experiences so far, limited to only .380 ACP pistol length barrels 6 to 7 1/2" lth, 1" OD, 416 stainless (Living on the Oregon coast I've come to feel an affinity for stainless over carbon steel).
The buttons are carbide, made in Germany I believe, and sold on ebay from Slovenia. I also have three other calibers coming from Russia that are high carbon steel or HHS, said to be good for 500 barrels. The tool steel buttons are much cheaper of course.

I use "Moly Z" powder, very fine flour of molybdenum Disulfate, and mix it into a thick gooy paste with Napa silver bottle never seize, which I slather all over both the ID of the blanks and the buttons. A carbide rod anchored rigidly (Press fit) to the ram of a hydraulic power press pushes down into the blanks which are threaded into a larger platen, so that there is no capability of either pushrod or blank to kick out sideways, and the blanks are free bored 1" to the button diameter so that it also is forced to drive straight.

The gent who sold me the buttons said to bore the blanks .348" (http://mail.centurylink.net/service/home/~/Tips to 380 ACP.pdf?auth=co&loc=en_US&id=139021&part=2) but I'm getting good results starting much smaller, .336".

The real difficulty came as a surprise to me, the pressing, which I imagined would be very difficult, is easier than expected, perhaps due to the extreme attention to alignment I've been giving things. But the real difficulty is the blank's pre pressing size consistency and smoothness, because if it isn't smooth and basically perfect at the outset it will be worse after pressing.
I'd expected that the button would "iron out" many flaws, and leaving flaws behind is much more difficult than I had expected. Also, learning how much to drill undersized to allow for lapping depends totally on the quality of the first pass with the drill.
So I bought a gun drill, which I haven't yet set up, as it has to have high pressure cutting oil pumping through it to flush out swarf. I have an old hydraulic reservoir and pump that should do fine, but at every turn I'm finding that things I assumed would be straight forward and simple are difficult and complex! But that actually adds to the fun if the path is followed to completion.

I've rifled about 6 blanks and some have turned out pretty good, certainly acceptable for a self defense handgun's functionality. Of course the goal is perfection of course.

Once I get the gun drill set up (In a commercial repair and CNC production shop, finding time is another roadblock) I hope to have answers to how exactly to process from start to finish barrels that are high quality.
I'm just a plinker and target shooter but no way near as dedicated at shooting as many guys are with callouses on the tips of their fingers from pulling the trigger and placing their trophies.

I want invaders of America, enemies from outside and within, to know there are many many of us who will take their unconstitutional assaults only so far, and that we will always find the means to resist.

I think it is SOP that blanks are gun-drilled, reamed, and then lapped before buttoning. You don't mention reaming in your process and I don't see how you will get consistent diameters and decent finish all the way through with just a drill. Lapping is optional but desired to smooth out most of the tool marks which will end up on the top of the lands.

Hart is the only production barrel shop to push buttons as far as I know. Yes, you need to drill, ream, and lap before running your button through. Did you try Danjon for tooling? You might check them out. I've watched Jim make carbide buttons from scratch in Shilen's shop for years. They are a real work of art.
A real challenge is finding a great lube for buttoning. It is a closely held secret.

You don't mention reaming in your process and I don't see how you will get consistent diameters and decent finish all the way through with just a drill.

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The omission here didn't mean I'd neglected it, I just failed to mention it. I bought two reamers right around the target size. But the target size is just a guess still at this point as I'm not sure how much lapping I'll have to do to get the pre-button finish I need. The reamers are push reamers and I'm told pull reamers work better, I'd never even heard of pull reamers before this thing started.

As for push buttons, they work as well for pistol barrels almost. There is clearly an advantage to pulling anything through a high ratio hole over pushing though, but pulling adds another layer of complexity while solving the obvious difficulties of pushing.
Apparently pull buttons need to be silver brazed to shanks, and the process seems to favor making a dedicated hydraulic setup. If I have enough time to make rifle barrels someday it is doable, but I'm getting pretty old.
"You're only as old as you feel" they say, I feel pretty old.

You may want to read this. He is a well known barrelmaker in the UK. http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature Articles/RifledBarrelManuf/BarrelManufacture.htm
Most barrelmakers look for a .004 land height. A 30 cal for instance would try to hit a .300 bore to achieve a .308 groove diameter. You will find that the barrel makers test each new lot of steel. For some reason they do not all drill and ream to the tenth with the same drills and reamers.
The design of the button controls the twist. Most have adjustable sine bars to help the button. Remember that the button cuts nothing, it only irons in the grooves.

Yes Butch, but remember that button rifling is associated with the image of a snake swallowing an egg, the material bulges out as the button goes through, and, if allowed too much latitude, the riflings will be incomplete. That reminds me, again, of thread forming, you know that if the hole size is too big the threads will only partially form, and if too small the tap has a short life, perhaps very short.
At pre button size .336" to.338" the riflings are fully formed.

Also, the carbide buttons are of the topping type, that is rifling/finishing or two operation type, so no matter how high the lands raise during the riflings being formed there is a following burnish section that burnishes the tops, so the riflings heights are dictated by the button. I do not feel that the lands are as high as I'd like to see them for longevity, they only look like they are .002-3" high but I haven't measured them yet.

I wish I could get a good photo of what has been done so far.

Have you been to a reputable barrel shop and watched and questioned the craftsmen? I see you have a larger learning curve than you admit. I have measured a lot of lands and grooves. If you are interested, just put a tenth indicator in a barrel. It is easy to check the height of the lands. I do this every time I chamber a barrel.
You might want to go to BR.Com and ask questions of the BR crowd. You could learn alot from them.

You're pushing a .355 button thru a .338 hole? I can't imagine how that's even possible. And it'd be interesting to see what they measure after you turn the blank down.

I've done about 4 barrels that look like they are indeed usable now, not target barrels but usable. The learning curve is something I've already been climbing, and more is not a problem.
If in the end I find that button rifling is too difficult (But I'm way past that already) It would be easy to make a sine bar rifling machine, nothing at all mysterious there.

I also have the capability of making broaches, as any machine shop should. Commercial quality? Probably not without specialized dedicated machinery, but serviceable? Not a shadow of a doubt. Guys, anything you want to do, if you have time and desire to do it, you can do it, there will always be people who try to tell you it can't be done.

When I get what I consider to be quality barrels for self defense weapons I will publish my methods, so the next guy isn't working without any proprietary knowledge needed.

Wesg, yes, .338 before honing, about .340-.342 before rifling. The blank takes a set, the snakes belly is larger after swallowing that big egg. I'll slug the best looking barrel and measure it.

I was looking into this for sometime after getting floored with the price for a blank for a fun little plinking project rifle I was going to build myself. Some information I found. Pull reaming was recommend. Never got actual numbers but starting much closer to the land diameter then you are sounded like what they are doing. Again don't remember any specific oils but sounded like some where using something in the stamping/draw forming family.

partsproduction said:

I've done about 4 barrels that look like they are indeed usable now, not target barrels but usable. The learning curve is something I've already been climbing, and more is not a problem.
If in the end I find that button rifling is too difficult (But I'm way past that already) It would be easy to make a sine bar rifling machine, nothing at all mysterious there.

I also have the capability of making broaches, as any machine shop should. Commercial quality? Probably not without specialized dedicated machinery, but serviceable? Not a shadow of a doubt. Guys, anything you want to do, if you have time and desire to do it, you can do it, there will always be people who try to tell you it can't be done.

When I get what I consider to be quality barrels for self defense weapons I will publish my methods, so the next guy isn't working without any proprietary knowledge needed.




Wesg, yes, .338 before honing, about .340-.342 before rifling. The blank takes a set, the snakes belly is larger after swallowing that big egg. I'll slug the best looking barrel and measure it.

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A real barrelmaker will shoot for a .300 bore for a 308. Keep that in mind.