Tooling advise...?

*Straps on flame suit*

I've got some hours on a Hardinge lathe and have chambered a few rifles and other work but never was educated on the types of tooling used. Was always setup for me and I ran the levers.

I'm in the process of setting up a new lathe that will be delivered next week.... It's a 1340GT from Precision Mathews with a DRO and Microswitch carriage stop along with some other goodies. I've been researching tooling and my brain is cramping up on me.

I'd like to go with Carbide insert tooling and don't mind spending $$$ to get good stuff. Prefer to "buy once cry once" and with the Microswitch I should be able to thread at high enough speeds to use carbide.

This is a dedicated gun building lathe and I'll be truing up actions, threading tennons and muzzles mainly.. I know I need inside and outside threading tools, facing/turning tools as well as parting tools. Have looked at various kits and what not but haven't the knowledge to know what I should purchase. Any advice on tooling diameters, brands and styles would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Mike

OK Ill try to help. 13" lathe could be CX or BX size tool post I checked the site and I could not find an answer. Determine which size the lathe is equipped with and that will determine the size tool holders you should order. IDK how the microswitch stop works or if it will allow you to do high speed threading but here is a co that does hs steel insert tooling. Arthur Warner Co. | Specialists in High Speed Steel

I would suggest you buy some 1 3/8" and 1 1/4" cold rolled bar stock such as 1018 for practicing on, learn how to make your own tools out of high speed steel or cobalt tool blanks as you don't need carbide tooling for what you plan on doing. You need experience in setting up and making chips.

+1 on the HSS. For barrel threading, Carbide is a waste of money. And learning to grind your own tools is both fun and informative. Think of it this way- you're moving from being an "operator" to being a "set-up operator." I don't mean this to be in any way offensive, because I'm sure as heck no expert; just being pragmatic.

I just got back to machining after a 30+ year hiatus. Before I touched a barrel, I practiced making tools I could use- a spider for barrel work, an arbor for truing receivers, a set of arbors for truing scope mounts, etc. In taking this approach, facilitated by a long wait for my barrel, I re-discover my skills and made useful tooling at the same time.

Good luck!

DougW

I got a lot of my indexable holders from shars and eBay. Shars has good quality indexable holders just make sure you get good quality inserts. I was reffered to buy a VNMG holder and it's great. Also I picked up a internal LH threading tool and it comes in very handy. I can use the same 16er inserts I use on my external holder but on the inside. I've always like Bass tool because I can buy individual inserts from them instead of a whole box. I almost picked up that same lathe he was running a special around Christmas but a monarch popped up in my area on CL and I jumped. A dro would be nice but I can add later. I also have a TPG tool holder that I use for finish work sometimes.

I don't like the cost of carbide tooling, but for high production it is a must. I taught myself the basics initially using high speed steel tools. When I went to CST, we used HSS. I have worked in industry for years using carbide, never considering cost because someone else was paying. However, I never hunted for 55 degree threading tools, which are needed for Mausers.

Awesome stuff guys thank you! Here's a question, is HSS really a better tool for my intended purpose? Or is it just a cheaper tool that is still adequate? I need to start reading up on that I guess... Don't worry about offending me, been on many forums and know exactly how I feel when I see a new thread like mine, but obviously there are people here that are a bit nicer than myself!

I've got a few old junk factory barrels I'm going to be practicing on, as well as planning on picking up a bunch of scrap and get to making chips before I jump back into spinning up an expensive barrel or picking up some threads on a nice 700 action. Will mainly be working/machining stainless actions and barrels...

I've been told that I need to go with the largest shank diameter tooling possible that my tool holder will use. As long as I'm able to maintain a good chip load and I rarely take big passes on anything I'm working on. Good idea or no? What is the maximum size I can go while still being small enough to true up .994" ID action threads?

The one thing I'm learning about this hobby/trade is that there really are no set rules and experience/practice is really what counts. So many variables to consider for each job... Can't wait to get things up and running and making chips. Been wanting to get tooled up for a few years now and can't wait to jump in. I'll have a week off when the lathe shows up so I'll be spending a lot of time rearranging the shop and getting to know the new toy!

Mike

Here's some stuff I'm looking at... I am trying to research best I can on my own!
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/53438586
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/53440616
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/05698048
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/08443046

Now about boring bars... talking to my gunbuilding friend, he hardly ever uses them... he actually uses end mills in the tail stock to cut bolt nose reliefs and other similar cuts because they cut a square shoulder instead of worrying about not getting a perfect cut up to a shoulder... if this doesn't make sense let me know and I'll try to clarify. Thank you!

Mike

I'm partial to the micro100 boring bars for stuff under a inch much more than that I have 3/4 and 1.5" boring bars. But as far as the tool holders you selected I've never used the style profiling one you've picked honestly the main ones I use are TPG, vnmg, and wnmg. I picked up a couple boxs of indexable tool holders at a local auction for 15$ I know I can ebay the stuff out and make a enough to go on a vacation but I like to try one out every now and then to see if I like it. I order inserts from bass tool because they know what they are talking about and I can say I want a insert for ____ and they say ok you want this one. I dug out a mini thin from one of those boxes and have found it to be handy I like the size relief it leves for when I'm threading barrels it's almost perfect to me. Again shars has tool holders at great prices and amazon runs sales time to time picked up a coolant thru style iscar for 23$ a few months ago.

HellsCanyon said:

Awesome stuff guys thank you! Here's a question, is HSS really a better tool for my intended purpose? Or is it just a cheaper tool that is still adequate? I need to start reading up on that I guess... Don't worry about offending me, been on many forums and know exactly how I feel when I see a new thread like mine, but obviously there are people here that are a bit nicer than myself!

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For the type of work you will be doing the HSS that Sea Sick Steve posted is probably your best bet: Arthur Warner Co. | Specialists in High Speed Steel Carbide is best suited to high speed applications. Gunsmithing RARELY involves high speed machines. On a manual lathe the HSS is MUCH better suited. It is also less expensive and many, if not all, of the Warner HSS inserts can be resharpened easily.

HellsCanyon said:

I've got a few old junk factory barrels I'm going to be practicing on, as well as planning on picking up a bunch of scrap and get to making chips before I jump back into spinning up an expensive barrel or picking up some threads on a nice 700 action. Will mainly be working/machining stainless actions and barrels...

I've been told that I need to go with the largest shank diameter tooling possible that my tool holder will use. As long as I'm able to maintain a good chip load and I rarely take big passes on anything I'm working on. Good idea or no? What is the maximum size I can go while still being small enough to true up .994" ID action threads?

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Sticking with the largest shank tool you can is always a good idea. However, the geometry of the tool/holder will determine the tool for any given application. The Warner "1/2 inch Threader (T) Laydown" would work well for the application stated above. Arthur R. Warner Co. | Specialists in High Speed Steel - Kit #20 1/2 inch Threader (T) Laydown

Taking too light of a pass can work harden the steel. This is one of the reasons HSS is a better choice for this type of work.

Carbide is very hard, brittle and not terribly sharp. The "cutting" edge basically pushes the steel out of the way (sheared rather than cut) . There is a lot of friction at the tip of a carbide cutter. This works very well if you can get the work piece moving fast enough that the heat is pushed into the chip rather than the work piece. Coolant can help but the cut quality will suffer, with or without coolant, if proper feed rates are not achieved. Any more than one light finishing pass with carbide and you could be in trouble AND the finish of the cut may actually suffer. The other issue is that if you get any chatter there is a high probability that a carbide insert will fail. By far I have chipped more carbide inserts than I have worn out.

HSS is not as hard or as brittle and if properly maintained can be very sharp. Because the edge is sharp the metal is cut rather than pushed away. At lower feeds and speeds HSS will out perform carbide by a long shot! For truing up receiver threads and cutting barrel shanks the less expensive option is the better option. I can get 2 or 3 finish passes with the HSS inserts without overly work hardening the steel and the quality of the cut doesn't go down hill. Chatter is MUCH less of an issue with HSS as the inserts are more resilient and not as prone to chipping. In fact I have never chipped a Warner insert. (I wish I could say that about carbide)

HellsCanyon said:

The one thing I'm learning about this hobby/trade is that there really are no set rules and experience/practice is really what counts. So many variables to consider for each job... Can't wait to get things up and running and making chips. Been wanting to get tooled up for a few years now and can't wait to jump in. I'll have a week off when the lathe shows up so I'll be spending a lot of time rearranging the shop and getting to know the new toy!

Mike

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Get the Warner HSS insert tooling, at least for threading. You are not doing production, so cut quality over speed is more important. I still use both HSS and carbide depending on application. Most of my finish cuts, crowning, and threading are done with HSS. I can grind a razor sharp edge a make a cut that is so fine the chips are like steel wool. Most of my barrel work is on 416R SS.

Congratulations, a band new lathe with metric threading.

Carbide is great for going back to the same dimensions and shape with just flipping an insert, great for turning very hard stock but hard chips of steel and carbide are not good for the lathe. Sometimes better for cast iron often with having a high finish negative land at the edge.
HSS is great for one-ups or a few parts you might get through with one sharpening or two, great for being most economical, great for file-hard-test steel, often better for aluminum. Can be nose bumped for a specific thread with not having a diamond wheel, great for special shapes not found in inserts, very easy to sharpen to standard shapes and special shape with a little practice. HSS is there when you need it or only 5 or 10 minutes away(time for shape and sharpening).
To be a good lathe hand you should be open to both. For hobby and non high production jobbing often HSS will be as good to better than carbide.. IMHO.

Great stuff guys and I'm really absorbing everything I can. I have talked with two other builders, one runs a LOT of cnc lathes and mills and recommended carbide but said HSS cuts better at slower speeds but I'd be spending lots of time sharpening tools. Another guy echoed the same thoughts.

So with that in mind I believe I am going to get the Arthur Warner HSS insert threading tools so I won't have to learn to sharpen or grind my own tools right away, but will get carbide turning/facing insert tooling as well as I shouldn't have a problem learning to do those at high enough speeds to utilize the carbide. Will still be ordering HSS tool blanks and will slowly be learning to grind my own bits.

Good plan?

Mike

Typical gunsmith thread. Thanks for saying you won't be offended.
"I have no idea what I'm doing but I want to do it to customer's guns. I have no idea what tooling to fuck them up with. Please help."

tdmidget said:

Typical gunsmith thread. Thanks for saying you won't be offended.
"I have no idea what I'm doing but I want to do it to customer's guns. I have no idea what tooling to fuck them up with. Please help."

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Surprised it took this long for someone to post up a response like this. No worries I'm here to get some advice and don't mind wading through these posts to get advice. Thanks for the not so helpful post bud... [emoji106][emoji108]

Mike

HellsCanyon said:

Great stuff guys and I'm really absorbing everything I can. I have talked with two other builders, one runs a LOT of cnc lathes and mills and recommended carbide but said HSS cuts better at slower speeds but I'd be spending lots of time sharpening tools. Another guy echoed the same thoughts.

So with that in mind I believe I am going to get the Arthur Warner HSS insert threading tools so I won't have to learn to sharpen or grind my own tools right away, but will get carbide turning/facing insert tooling as well as I shouldn't have a problem learning to do those at high enough speeds to utilize the carbide. Will still be ordering HSS tool blanks and will slowly be learning to grind my own bits.

Good plan?

Mike

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You would be better off investing in 1 3/8 inch and 1 1/4 inch low carbon cold rolled round bar stock for lots & lots of pratice simulating receiver and barrel work before you ever attempt to work on a firearm. Buy some 3/8" square HSS tool blanks and learn how to make them cut. Last suggestion is don't waste your time asking CNC operators whats the best tooling for gunsmithing, as they wouldn't have a clue. Spend several hundred hours practicing on your lathe and you may be able to accurize and barrel a receiver.

I strongly disagree with

Last suggestion is don't waste your time asking CNC operators whats the best tooling for gunsmithing, as they wouldn't have a clue.

Click to expand...

Cutting metal is fairly similar in most aspects of machining, it doesn't turn magical just because its part of a gun or a gas turbine.

Do you want to cut metal or learn how to piss around grind tool bits. Once dull hope to be able to make what you just did. I suggest figuring out the size and length of bores you need to do and look for inserted bars that fit those dimensions. If your not sure the fit provide length and bore size and bar your considering, and someone will be able to tell you if it will work once you have all the pieces of the previous puzzle.

So Id and OD threading and internal boring
I assume the diameter of inside bore is smaller then .5 so inserted bars are not great your more likely looking at Harvey Tool - Carbide Boring Bars>. I like harvey tools products for milling. I would assume there turning stuff is just as good.

threading is harder to get a one size fits all if you can bring some thread sizes to the table and if there an id or od thread. I would be happy to suggest something.

nofxz said:

I strongly disagree with
Cutting metal is fairly similar in most aspects of machining, it doesn't turn magical just because its part of a gun or a gas turbine.

Do you want to cut metal or learn how to piss around grind tool bits. Once dull hope to be able to make what you just did. I suggest figuring out the size and length of bores you need to do and look for inserted bars that fit those dimensions. If your not sure the fit provide length and bore size and bar your considering, and someone will be able to tell you if it will work once you have all the pieces of the previous puzzle.

So Id and OD threading and internal boring
I assume the diameter of inside bore is smaller then .5 so inserted bars are not great your more likely looking at Harvey Tool - Carbide Boring Bars>. I like harvey tools products for milling. I would assume there turning stuff is just as good.

threading is harder to get a one size fits all if you can bring some thread sizes to the table and if there an id or od thread. I would be happy to suggest something.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the good post!
I'll be threading OD threads of 1/2-28, 5/8-24, and barrel tennons with 16TPI and .994-1.0625 OD or similar dimensions. Same for ID of action threads. Threading will be less than 1" in length typically.

As far as advice coming from my CNC source.... He started in manual mills and lathes and has put a couple hundred rifles together on an old Hardinge he rebuilt. He's quite knowledgeable and I trust his opinion.

Mike

I tried the Warner HSS threading tool and inserts but quickly went back to Carmex carbide laydown inserts.

I may go against the grain, but 99.9% of the time I'm going to grab a carbide insert for lathe work. This is not 1950 any more.

Just a suggestion. Buy boring bars that use the CCGT, CCMT type inserts. Buy a box of the very sharp carbide inserts intended for aluminum. You will find they are very polite to use for light finish passes in steel, whereas "normal" carbide inserts will make you pull your hair out if you are trying to sneak up on a dimension. Not gunsmithing work but here's an illustration. I'm making a bunch of stainless motor shafts with a couple bearing fits with tolerances around +.0001"/-.0002". My lathe is an industrial machine and with a typical dull insert I can take huge roughing cuts- cuts that would destroy the CCGT's. I aim for about .003" oversize. Then set the parts aside to cool. Then finish with the sharp CCGT's, which are sharp enough to shave a few tenths if need be.

My point, muddled as it is, is that most gunsmithing will not involve hogging metal. The regular dull carbide insets intended for production machining on very rigid machines will drive you batty on a noodly 13" hobby machine where you are taking light cuts and proceeding cautiously. However the sharp inserts I mention will work great. I have numerous boring bars set up for them, plus a set of indexable holders. I do a lot of aluminum and plastic machining which is how I first found them, but they are indispensable to me now.

The Warner HSS insertable tooling is great. If they make a LH internal threader I'd get that over a RH. It'll allow you to run the spindle in reverse and chase threads from the inside out.