The usual "I have an old shotgun" question......

I have had for quite a while an old single shot lever break Hopkins and Allen Model "F" (apparently like every third person on the planet). It has a 6 digit serial number of 17417X. the last digit is not clearly readable, it's a bit light. A family weapon, like all the others seem to be, and appears to be 16 ga, based on the breech size, it is not marked for gauge. I have NOT fired it, personally, but family members have, years ago. I have no details on what was or was not done, and they are not available to ask.

It is marked "Hopkins and Allen Arms", and the serial is marked behind the trigger guard and on the barrel hook.

I'd have it looked at before using it, but what I want to find out is if that is even worth it. If a wrapped or long seam type, it's going on the wall, but if it is a solid barrel, I'd have it looked at.

A family member who is retired from being a gunsmith (had federal license) looked it over and says it is in functional shape, with no visible defects to preclude firing it. But, he doesn't know much about H & A, and mostly worked on pistols and black powder rifles, so he had no particular opinions about its use.

I have read up on these from internet sources. Opinions on these seem to be all over the map

Some say these are too dangerous to fire, ever, and direct the owner to permanently disable the lock and hang it on the wall. They say all of them are "wrapped and hammer welded strip" barrels, and should never be fired.

Others say some are and some are not.

Some say they are fine with a proper length cartridge.


So... given the range of things said on the internet, I have no idea. Is there a way to determine what the real story is? I'd have thought that the serial and markings would give an indication, but it's a different format from the ones mentioned in many of the threads I found, and apparently H & A records were not preserved so that may not be any help at all.

I happen not to have any other shotguns, so......? I wouldn't bother to buy a shotgun, (we are more of fast-draw pistol shooters) but if this was fireable, I would use it.

Can it be determined from he markings (which may date it) or otherwise what sort of barrel it has? And from that, what (if any) sort of load it was intended to use?

If you really want to know, proof fire it with the intended powder. If it passes, you can stamp JST and the date. If it fails, well then better then than latter.

Tom

I would probably look for a gunsmith who could magna flux the barrel, x-ray it, or some other non-destructive process to try and inspect the structural integrity as best I could before I made a decision on what to do with it.

JMHO

-Ron

Somehow the first suggestion doesn't recommend itself to me..... Not quite sure why... I like the "later" more than the "sooner", anyhow... about 50 years down the road looks good to me as later, since I won't be worried about it then.

I'd take it to a gunsmith, once I know if its at least "probably" a construction that is worth fooling with. That will likely be known by someone who is familiar with old guns in general, and H & A in particular. Kinda hoping someone like that will see this.....

If the barrels are what is commonly referred to as damascus material which looks like strands wrapped around the barrel and forge welded, it might be safe for black powder loads only. Modern smokeless shells are too powerful. Only a competent gunsmith can give a valid opinion on safety. If it is safe with black powder, judicious cleaning after each use is a must.

Bob
WB8NQW

We've been through all this on another forum. What he wants is for someone to tell him whether it probably has a damascus barrel, or not.

He has tried etching the barrel and can't see any obvious pattern on the outside-but there appear to be "rings" visible on the inside of the barrel.

More precisely, I am looking for someone who has specific knowledge of the H & A guns. The folks over there did NOT know them, and that's OK.

I was referred over here, where I might have asked anyhow, but I did not realize the H & A were not known well. I had thought they made a ton, and on other places I read, the folks seemed to know about them. But I was not a member.

I'm just looking ideally for "yes, that describes a gun from when they made welded barrels " or "No that should be a solid barrel' or maybe a question as to other details. Even a "we don't know" is fine. If it's not possible to give a good probability, OK, this isn't a crucial deal, but I would like to know.

I have no line on a gunsmith who works on older weapons and might know H & A. Taking it to someone who does NOT know them won't do me any good. Supposedly the style of the maker's name mark and the name used shows the age and so the type it should be, because it changed over time. I don't know how true that is, but it makes sense. Someone with a good knowledge of older guns would know.

Supposedly a family member has some of the ammunition that was used with it. That would be a clue, but I have no way of knowing if it was, or even if it SHOULD have been used with it, plus, it is old enough to be unstable by now, and I'd rather not mess with it. He said the box was stained with something leaking from the shells..... !

Do you have any measuring tools, like a .001" caliper? If so, measure the bore diameter at the muzzle and the chamber diameter at the breech. Those will give some idea of the chambering. Also measure the depth of the forcing cone (the step down in diameter seen from the breech.) That will give some idea of the shell length.

You might also open a thread at Home Gunsmithing and see if anyone there can help.

I have lots.... the breech is .745 to 0.750, making it 16ga. Muzzle is smaller, don't recall, 0.695 sounds familiar but I'd have to measure again.. Do not have a depth measurement, but could, if pressed, take a cast of it with Cerro metal, should have enough to do that volume.

Main issue is whether its welded (in which case it's a wall ornament) or not.

This is just a guess. You said that there is a serial number, I know that there are a lot of old shotguns without serial numbers that are safe to shoot with smokless power, so I am guessing that yours would be. Usually a shotgun that is unsafe with smokless power will have a stamp like "welded steel or Laminated steel" or it will be obviously Damascus steel.

You could cut one of your old shells open to see if it is black or smokless power. Pour the power out on your driveway and touch a match to it. If it puffs, make a lot of suffer smelling smoke it was blackpower and you could assume that the gun may be unsafe to fire with smokeless power. If the power just burns or won't burn it is smokless.

Why not load it with a low brass shell, stick it in an old tire, put another old tire on top of it and fire it remotely by pulling a string.

Another thing to consider is the firing pin. If I remember correctly my father shot one such gun(H&A 12 gauge) and the firing pin exited out the back past his head. Bit of a scare all things considered. Not sure if it was the factory pin or homemade. I would probably err on the side of safety an just hang it for decoration. You can buy modern single shot guns fairly reasonable and shoot them all day long.

While black powder cleanup is a significant pain, black powder charges give much less pressure for the same performance, so that is an option if you decide to shoot it.

JST, measuring chamber depth is easy if you use a gauge. They are simple to make in that it is slightly smaller than breach diameter and about 5 inches long. Begin from 1 end and measure to 2 inches and scribe a line. Move out 1/4 inch and scribe another and continue until around 3 to 3.5 inches. Stick in chamber until it stops without force. Mark the closest line and you can measure with a scale from the next line back to breach which will give depth of forcing cone. I have dimensions for them somewhere I could look up for you if you like. May take a day or so.

If I remember right, the chamber should be as long as the shell with the crimp unfolded. A 2 3/4 shell will measure around 2 1/4 +/- unfired. Older standards were something like 2 9/16 or something like that and the new standard raises pressure unpredictably in the shorter chamber

I really do not know if it would be a twist or solid barrel. I just do not know shotguns that well.

I found this reference over on http://www.gunvaluesboard.com/i-jus...el-f-with-serial-184503-what-y...-427368.html

The Hopkins and Allen Model F was made in the period 1902-1908. This shotgun is a Forehand design (H & A purchased Forehand Arms Company in 1902 and continued producing the Forehand models until replaced circa 1908-09 by Davenport designs{H & A bought W. H. Davenport Firearms company circa 1908-09})

The Model F is H & A Catalog number 712 1/2 (fluid steel barrel) or 812 1/2 (Twist Steel barrel which is not considered safe to use with modern ammunition.)

Click to expand...

Hopefully that helps,

-Ron

Yes it is, I will go check that site out, don't recall looking at it.. It DOES seems to give choices, though, does it not?

It's either a welded barrel, OR a "fluid steel" barrel......!

Now all I need to figure out is whether it is a catalog number 712 1/2 or an 812 1/2.

A 16 gauge shotgun of that era would most likely be chambered for 2 9/16" shells. My father's Win Model 12 dates from 1919 or so and was chambered 2 9/16". Best to use only the correct length shell even though a 2 3/4" shell will fit in the chamber. The problem is that when it is fired, 3/16" of shell mouth is in the forcing cone and bore which is bad. It is possible to find the shorter shells. Sometimes Cabela's has them.

As someone else has mentioned, etching the barrels will show some pattern if it is what is commonly known as damascus steel. I would do it under the forearm where it will not be visible. Ferric chloride is what knife makers use to etch their pattern welded blades and is available at Radio Shack for circuit board etching.
What is the condition of the bore? Have you cleaned it properly? Does the gun lock up tightly? There are folks who shoot their Damascus barreled shotguns without hesitation and you can read about them at the doublegunBBS forum. Somebody there may have information for you as well. If I had to bet, that is if I HAD TO and I don't have to, I would bet that it is a fluid steel barrel or one piece especially if no pattern is visible.
Do you have any pictures of it that you can post?

There is a little pitting in the bore, the retired gunsmith relative did not think it was a problem. It's cleaned, had not been done for a longish time before I got it.

I doubt I could get a pic of the bore. There is just enough marking inside the barrel to suggest a twist barrel is possible, although etching gave no definite result. I may have some ferric chloride, I'll have to search around. I used to. It may give a better view, all I had on hand was some dilute HF, Could use sulfuric if I steal some from the battery bank..

It's tight when locked up, no shake.

You might try taking a picture of the outside of the barrel using a flash. When I did that with my old Colt double the "pattern" on the barrel stood out like a sore thumb but you couldn't see it in "normal" light. To show you what I mean...



More pics here - ArcaneIron.com • View topic - Replacing the "mule ears" on a Colt dbl barrel shotgun

FWIW

-Ron

MetalCarnage said:

You might try taking a picture of the outside of the barrel using a flash. When I did that with my old Colt double the "pattern" on the barrel stood out like a sore thumb but you couldn't see it in "normal" light. ...

-Ron

Click to expand...

Can't say as it made me any smarter, but here 'tis: