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Which lathe & mill for new shop?

T_Hicks

Plastic
Joined
Oct 28, 2005
Location
Central NC
Hi all,

I am at the beginning of starting my own gunsmith shop. Thanks for your patience answering yet another newbie-getting-started question.

Background: mid-life career change, good mechanical aptitude but no machining experience. I intend to do the AGI video series so I can get started on my own schedule. I am currently looking into shop space, financing, etc. Haven't bought any equipment yet. FFL will happen when I find the shop space.

My quandry is, I will need a good mill and lathe to go through the videos and start the business with. But I don't know what I am looking for. I have been wandering around gunsmith and machine Web sites, and the terminology is pretty foreign, though I'm sure I will catch on with time and study. Looked at a few machine Web sites, and I REALLY don't know what I am looking for.

I need a recommendation for a lathe and miller for my gunsmith shop.

What features do I look for?

New or used?

Foreign-made or US?

What is the most I should pay for them?

I am figuring that I will need about $20,000 in just equipment to get started. Please help me spend it wisely.

If this question is too big, please pardon, but I need to start somewhere.
 
T Hicks, First, let me tell you a story. I got my first lathe about ten years ago. A young friend who happened to be a machinist stopped by the house and I asked him how long it would take to teach me to run it. He kind of looked me over in deep thought. His responce. I don't think you are going to live that long but I can make you dangerous in an hour. I now can get just about everything done I need to even on my own guns but I don't feel qualified to do custom work. I would try to get some OJT first or a machinist school. Or open a gun shop to sell guns and learn to do some minor things while you learn. A real gunsmith school would be best and time consuming. Wish you the best of luck.
 
Sicero, thanks for the advice. I have already been in touch with a few gunsmiths and had a lot of the same advice. I am choosing the best course based on my situation in life and my current understanding. I know I will make a lot of mistakes and live in poverty until I can do things well. I don't have the option of moving to a place where I can attend a trade school, or work for a year for nothing as an apprentice to someone else. I expect to have several years of rough rocky road ahead.

To all others:

I would still appreciate an answer to my original questions. I am not a fifteen year old kid spinning daydreams. I am a forty-nine year old guy making decisions that will affect the future of my wife and children. If you could take the time to offer some rough guidance, I would appreciate it.

By the way, you may be asking yourself: "why I don't ask the gunsmiths you've already been talking to?" The reason is, I would rather not burden any one person with having to yell me everything. I respect other people's time.

Any and all advice regarding machine selection appreciated.
 
There is no good answer to your question.
What type of work are you planing to do??
Look at refinishing befor building custion guns..
Get a hot blue system Brownells sells them,
and good polishing set up. A drillpress or kneemill the mill would be used in place of the drillpress as well as many other jobs..
Lathe would depend on what your doing chambering or just making screws and pins.
 
Q: What is the difference between a pizza and a gunsmith?
A: A pizza can feed a family of four...

I don't mean to discourage you, but you need to be realistic about what you are attempting to do.
If you would be more specific about your goal, ie will you be a pistolsmith? a precision riflesmith? or a general gunsmith? , then you will get better advice.

A few tips:

1- $20,000 is not much to get started and leaves you neither working capital, nor cash reserve for slow months. Not to mention inventory.

2- Regarding the mill, a 2HP+ Bridgeport or quality clone (Acra is a good one) is an excellent machine for gunsmithing. 9x42 table minimum. You don't need a power feed or table, but DROs are a very worthwhile investment. R8 spindle is a good option as they and the related tooling are readly available. Expect to pay somewhere in the neighborhood of $4-$8000+ with DROs and tooling, depending on where you live and if you get a great deal on a used one or buy new.
Depending on what you buy, and your shop electrics, you may need phase conversion, add that into the price.

3- New or used is a tough question, it depends a lot on if you know what to look for in a used machine. In my experience you can pay about 30-40% of new for a good used machine, but you may make up the difference rebuilding your used machine later, I'd suggest having the money in reserve. I bought a used Bridgeport and am very happy with it, but I have had to rework a few things on it.


Gunsmithing is a tough business- the margins on guns are very low, margins on parts are low, and most of your customers can buy from most of your suppliers at the same price you do. Don't forget the ATF paperwork hassles.

Be prepared to "make a lot of mistakes and live in poverty" even after you "can do things well",- you would be amazed at the number of world class, first rate craftsmen who barely eke out a living.

Good luck and feel free to ask any more questions.
 
Look for a lathe with a big enough spindle bore to accommodate the biggest diameter barrel you can foresee working. Remember length to figure the distance between centers. You'll likely want to turn, thread and chamber in one setup. That probably means a 13"x40" or 14"x40" lathe. Recommend you look for the following in one:

1) Back gears or geared head.
2) Bottom speed under 100 rpm for threading.
3) Tumble reverse on the feed.
4) Quick-change toolpost.
5) Quick-change gearbox.
6) Minimum 2 horsepower on the spindle.

If you find a good used American machine, go for it. Your time might be better spent buying new, consider an import. I'd be inclined to suggest new rather than buying used up front, but that's just me. Depends on the market in your area.

Get a bench grinder for sharpening lathe tools, if you don't have one. Consider starting out with high-speed steel lathe tools and working up to carbide. You may find that less frustrating, as carbide can be unforgiving of mistakes. Get yourself a copy of "How to run a lathe" from a place like Lindsay Books.

$20K is not a lot of capital up front, but you can get these basics for it. You will need other stuff depending on what you're doing. Frank DeHaas wrote some excellent books on gunsmithing. You might also look for these.

This is rough and general, but hope it helps.
 
O K Let me set you strate. Been there done that. Had a gunsmith shop for over 10 years No gun sells just repairs. Lisen to what the guys are saying . You will need a drill press A good one , A good vice, Do bluing that will teach you a lot, Buy tools as you need them . Remenber you will have to make good any thing that you screw up if you damage some ones gun. Forget the lathe and mill right now , Buy evey book you can find and pratice on yours or junk guns. Let me know if you need any free advice
Ted
 
If you are not a trained machinist or gunsmith how will you stand up in court and explain what makes you think you have the qualifications to have been doing what you do for a living? Go to a real school get certified in machining and gunsmithing, go to factory schools. Then find out what it is that you do very very well and focus in on that. As far as machines try and find some good used iron but take some indicators, mag bases and some ground stock, look at the book "Machine Tool Reconditioning" for reference. Good Luck.

[ 10-29-2005, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: GRUNING ]
 
Hello T,
Short answer first. I was in the same boat you are and bought a Jet 13 x 40 inch lathe, and Jet mill-drill machine. They are not my dream machines, but do everything I need them to and cost about 5k for the pair. Longer answer. You are very lucky to live in central North Carolina, because you can't be far from Piedmont Community College. I went there for gunsmithing in the early 90's and can't say enough good things about them and their program. You will learn machine use and most every other aspect of gunsmithing. You can take night classes or day, and a lot of students take both to finish faster. Different people learn different ways and I'm one that needs to see someone else do it to understand the process. That's why a mail order course does not appeal to me. If at all possible learning, in person from a real pro is the only way to go. This program is more like a two year apprenticeship than a school course. I could go on for a while but I'm getting long here so good luck with your plans.
 
Thank you all for your advice.

Some responses to your statements:

My plan is:
* General gunsmithing, with focus on pistols and tactical rifles.
* Buy usd guns one at a time, tune and refinish them for experience, and sell them probably at a loss.
* I will get a bluing tank, but to begin I want to do two-part epoxy finishes, like duracoat or RoGuard. I want to get blasting hoods for aluminum oxide and glass beads, and offer refinishing with quick turnaround. Parkerizing as well.
* The $20K figure is for equipment only. I am expecting to need at least $50K to do everything I need to do.
* The mill and lathe are necessary. I don't see how I can do without them, without being just another hack gunsmith wannabe. I expect to also need a bench grinder, buffer, belt grinder, bandsaw, drill press, and a lot of tools and jigs. I will need to make a lot jigs myself for machining practice and to get the jobs done.
* I expected to buy used machinery. I only asked because I thought it a good idea to get advice rather than guessing.
* I know the AGI video course isn't the best of all worlds. I live not too far from Piedmont CC, and I have investigated the gunsmith course. I may enroll at some point, but I can't wait 2 1/2 years to get started.
* I have ordered the FFL application Form 7 from BATFE and will be sending it in as soon as I can get some shop space to lease.

Now the big question that seems to be behind some of your advice: Why am I doing this? Because after 25 years as a consultant and project manager in the computer business, I have had it.

Corporate America has 0.00% interest in keeping you. There is no such thing as "job security," or a "stable work environment." It is the most cut-throat, punishing, "do-this-or-else" environment you can imagine. You can put in 70-80 hours a week and still get told your not doing enough, or the right thing, and the axe will fall, and you will have NOTHING.

And what do you have when you're almost 50, and you're competing with a lot of 20-something kids fresh out of school? Your twenty-five years in the computer business mean zip-point-squat.

I have friends all around me that are getting the same shaft. We're nearing the last push to retirement age and we're getting whacked. And all the skill and experience you have in the business doesn't count to keep you employed. You can get shoved out the door for no apparent reason, as I was, and have nothing to show for it.

Now for the plus side:

I have loved guns all my adult life. I have tinkered-with, shot, bought and sold more than I care to admit. And I love taking them apart and fixing them.

I grew up the son of a truck driver, and I had to work my way through high school and college. Most of my jobs were in manufacturing, where I was handed blueprints and pointed at a drill press and basic machinery and I made parts for heat-treating ovens. And I loved it. I get a lot of satisfaction working with my hands. I already built a half dozen AR-15's and a 1911, and I know that I can do this.

What has always been frustrating is the lack of time and equipment to do the work I would really like to do on my guns. My 1911 didn't come out the way I'd like, mainly because I couldn't mill dovetails for sights, or tighten the rails, or tune the barrel timing myself. I ended up sending it to Kent Singletary and ROBAR to get it finished.

I also live in an area that has a lot of unused manufacturing space, and is growing like crazy. NC is also very gun-friendly and has CHL.

One of the guys advising me has already pointed me at the Brownell's "Gunsmith Kinks" series of books. I expect that I will be looking at >$4,000 in AGI courses and manuals.

I want you to know that I very much respect your opinions, and that you are doing the right thing to issue the dire warnings. I am not deaf to them, however, I believe I have given this a lot of thought, a lot of sleepless nights, and this is the right thing to do. I have the support of my wife and family.

Also, I will be picking up part time work as a system administrator where I can, to keep bread on the table. And the LORD won't let us starve. I believe this with all my heart.

Thanks for your advice.
 
You might want to consider trying to specialize in what smithing you would like to do. Without experience in machining or smithing, it would tremendously reduce the learning curve. Like you mentioned the 45 building and tactical guns, you could first build your own guns and then go to the matches so you can show them off. Word of mouth means a lot. People can't help but ask, "How much would a trigger job cost me"? Or ask about a compensator. Don't hesitate to take in other than gun work, it will all put food on the table.
I may be the only one here with this thought, but don't discount the bigger machines, like a knee mill with 30 taper or a 16" lathe. I started out with a 13" lathe and it was woefully small.
Michael
 
IMHO, FWIW a few comments:

1- You wrote: "My plan is: General gunsmithing, with focus on pistols and tactical rifles."

That is a very broad area to excel at, especially for a newcomer with no machining or professional gunsmithing background. Take a look at your competition- for example, you have gentlemen like Mr. Gruning on the board (superb tactical riflesmith), Chuck Rogers and Ned Christiansen, Richard Heinie (1911 guys)- all with extensive aerospace or tool and die backgrounds in machining AND real world experience in their respective gun specialties. Robar is a commercial plater which does work for aerospace and the gun industry. I suggest you pick one specialty which you are most passionate about, ie; tactical rifles, or finishing, get good at it, see if you can make money at it, then move on to another area.

2- Then you wrote "Buy usd guns one at a time, tune and refinish them for experience, and sell
them probably at a loss."

That is a bad business decision, one which breaks a lot of well intentioned persons. By selling at a loss you are devaluing your product, not paying your bills, AND you are losing money. Build a good product and charge what it is worth, which includes paying yourself a wage and making a profit.

High quality work like machining sight dovetails and timing barrels is not going to happen with a drill press, you need a mill for precision work. If you buy a mill you don't need a drill press.

Most small shop gunsmiths I know (and I know a lot of them) are doing really well to spend half their time actually working on guns. The remainder is spent doing ATF and tax paperwork, paying bills, ordering parts, shipping, and dealing with customers- in person, on the phone and via the internet. Be ready to work those 70-80 hours a week for yourself with no overtime, no benefits, no retirement, and no promotion.

S7 gave what I would consider good advice on the lathe.

Mr Gruning's advice "Go to a real school get certified in machining and gunsmithing, go to factory schools. Then find out what it is that you do very very well and focus in on that." is very good, ignore him at your own peril.

One last thing, don't borrow to get started, you will have a tough time getting out from under your loan...

Best of luck.
 
One other thing... Don't plan to build guns from parts kits and 80% receivers (or any other source of non-FFL receivers) for resale unless you obtain a manufacturer's FFL. Or unless you want to get to know the local ATF folks really well. Charles
 
Montgomery Community College in Troy NC has a great Gunsmithing program and has some summer short term classes for those whose time is limited. I took the trigger and action job class this summer and it was excellent. We used their milling machines and lathes and also performed a lot of hand fitting. Many of the folks in the class owned or worked at gun stores and a few were gunsmiths.
This might be a good way to get your feet wet without a huge investment of time and money. Class was only $100 for 10 days.
I have a 10" Southbend lathe and a tabletop Jet mill/drill. The lathe is adequate and the mill/drill is fine except that the head can swing around the column when you raise and lower it, so it does not stay indexed if you need to raise the head to use a longer tool after locating the hole. Some of the nicer mill/drills will stay located.
I subscribe to the Home Shop Machinist and read their website as well.
One of the constant topics of discussion is used American vs new or relatively new Asian. My experience is that the older asian stuff is sewage, but the high end newer stuff ( Jet, Grizzly, etc, is pretty nice. Also , the asian stuff is usally set up to cut metric threads which caa come in handy. I plan t sell my South Bend in a few years and get a new (or pretty new) Jet or grizzly.
A worn out American machine is not easy or cheap to recondition. If you fall into a cheap lightly used Briidgeport mill or South Bend lathe,grab it. Understand that they don't come up often. Have cash and a truck ready.
As for your own buiness, remember that 80% of small businesses fail in the first 2 years.
Mayne try to pick up this work part time and work it into full time.
good luck!
 
I do not know of one gunsmith I respect that has been certified as a machinest or a gunsmith. One guy is a top notch pistolsmith, he inherited his house from Mom and Dad so it is paid for, otherwise he could not support himself on what he makes.

The other guy set up retail gun store to support the habit of gunsmithing...he is very up front and honest that if his wife had not had a job as a teacher he could not have made it financially in the early years.

There are kinds of work in gunsmithing that are basic machining, say fitting and chambering rifle barrels, and other stuff is pure art.

I would just keep the guns you re-work, so you can allow customers hands on experience, and take lots and lots...and lots more of clear macro pictures of your work. I suppose you could setup a computer in the customer consult area and use digital pictures in this day and age, the pistolsmith I know has photo albums, and many hands on guns to show as examples.

Bill
 
I can't help but put in my 2 cents.

I am not trying to burst your bubble, just some friendly advise.

I am 57 years old and have been self employed in one business or another for most of my life. Some were part time for tax write offs while working for someone else and others were for a living.

I have found a person succedes most by living, breathing and sleeping their business. Determination is key, but can't overcome a bad idea.

The one thing 99% of people do not consider is the economic conditions and the future. I lost my butt in my first business because the economy west south after I made the inital investment.

Current forecasts are a recession next year if the gas prices stay like they are. If that isn't enough they are also saying real estate has leveled off and may go backward. What you need to watch is the fed prime rate. It has been raised quite frequently. No good for a business start.

Another thing I have learned is as soon as you turn your hobby into a business for money, the fun is gone. People are to critical when they lay out hard earned cash.

I am now disabled and on disability. I have all the time in the world to learn new things. I was around lathes and mills ealier in my life for awhile but never really ran them myself. But I too am mechanically inclined and have built and welded many projects like the cabin cruiser at www.reeldeahl.com.

I recently bought a mini mill and mini lathe because I wanted to make small parts. I have learned very quickly the cost of the machines is just a small part of the cost. The supporting items you need for these machines can run much more than machines themselves.

I have also learned the knowledge required to use these machines is considerable. I realize given my situation I will never master these machines. I do not believe video tapes can teach you everything you need to know properly. The most important things are never learned but picked up by watching the old pro and asking questions. You would be better off paying a college instructor or local machinist per hour to come in and teach you on a one on one. Another thing you could do is buy the equipment if you have the work and pay a good local machinist to come in and do the work. Don't forget to watch to see how he does things.

Nobody around where I live taught my programming language when I started so I found someone who programmed in the language and paid them to show me how to write the program with the money I got for my first project.

Another thing that concerns me is a mention of other gunsmiths in your area. If they are any good, that makes it worse for you.

You might consider a niche market. I know a gunsmith (which is a misnomer because he doesn't do any machine work himself but farms it out) that only works on semi-auto pistols.

I would almost bet the money is not in retail sales but in the service. Although you say you have built some ARs, there isn't any money in them at retail. You can buy an AR now for $700 that will print cloverleafs.

I would consider your path very carefully and do not let stubborness or emotions get in the way of a sound decision.

Good luck. ;)

John
 








 
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