Making Wanzel cartridges

Im looking for cartridge data for an 1867 wanzel

"...converted by Austrian arsenal to the Model 1867 "Wanzel" breechloading rifle which used a metallic cartridge known as 14x32.5mm Wanzel. This system was invented by Franz Wanzel of Vienna. "

I have been looking for some identification of these at many Google locations. There was an old shooters supply place but I cant find them and think they might be out of business. Anybody have a line on old ammo stuff or machining cartridges for this kind of use? Please dont send old links, I have tried about 50 from the old ammo sites and listings for places that are no longer in business. This is a unique looking item and I would like to have just a few cartridges for it even if I have to make them. Its a CW era european trapdoor conversion of a 58 caliber muzzle loader caplock. ( I always thought the trapdoor was a springfield invention but seems the europeans were there also). Im hoping the cartridges are brass and not steel or paper type but have no info at all yet on them. thanks for any help.

Can be made from 19/32 brass tubing. Base turned from 3/4 brass and soldered to tubing.
Another name is 14.5 x 33R Wanzl .
Straight rimmed cartridge
1.3 inch long
head dia .600
neck dia .586
rim dia .686
loaded length 1.97
rim thickness .065
use minie .555-.556 bullets
anneal and full length size

One of the better sources of "oddball" brass I am aware of currently is Buffalo Arms (www.buffaloarms.com).

They may not have what you need, but might have info to supplement abarnsleys.

Sounds like a fun project to get shooting! I'm looking for a Werndl rifle myself... just never seem to find one when I have the money. One day soon though!

Paul F.

Buffaloarms doesnt have them or much at all in that diameter but I'm hoping that possibly they might be cut down from something else european. Any other sources for old european cartridges?

also- Abarnsley,can you advise me where I can find a drawing possibly with the profile section and some details for primer etc. looks like I might be doing some brass turning and and silver soldering sooner than I thought. thanks very much for the info

......Lucywalker, abarnsley provided cartridge dimensions, but a chamber cast would still be a good idea. Sometimes these old conversions have issues, and a chamber cast will confirm what you will be dealing with. There can be sizeable differences between 'design' and production chambers.


I aquired a nifty little Comblain carbine. After much searching I finally deduced it was the 11x42R Brazilian contract version. As you can see from the chamber cast, there is NO NECK in the chamber. Undoubtedly the cardridge DID have to have a neck to hold the bullet.

I had at first checked the bore at the muzzle and came up with it at .433"x.452". After doing the chamber cast I found it had a proggressive depth groove as at the chamber the bore was still .433" but the groove was a fat .465".

Doing the chamber cast gave me 'real' dimensions I could work from. Studying "Cartridges Of The World". I found an extremely close donor cartridge in the form of 32ga shotshells. Graf & Son carry the entire line of Mag-Tech brass shotgun hulls. Only the 12 & 410ga at the time took LP primers. The remainder took Berdan primers.

Actually there were several cartridges that would have worked. Some prospective doners were moot themselves as you couldn't find them except in collections. A few others were very expensive and required a LOT of modifications. The Mag-Tech shotshells came closest with the least amount of work required and were cheap, so ruining some in experimenting was without major financial trauma.

I had to alter these 32ga cases for the 209 shotshell primer, but that's another story. Currently they're all boxer primed using LP primers.


I made the above dies and shellholder. Left is size and right is the seater die. I used the rods from a pair of old '86 Chevy Celebrity struts.


These are the 3 steps to forming the case. Since these are straight cases they're simple to bore. You find the correct body angle and bore the die to that, exceeding the cartridge length. Then you go straight in with the boring bar and bore to the desired neck OD.


A couple loaded rounds. The one on the left shows the obsolete (now)conversion to the 209 primer. The paper is label paper and used on the initial firing to take up the final few thousandths difference between case and chamber. In this instance it was about .008" total, or .004" all around. The paper brought this down to about a thou. The cases then could expand evenly all around.


A pic of the little carbine.


Don't laugh. These are from before I had a competant lathe to make dies with. I used all manner of different dies, bored and honed washers, and etc to mangle these into a close enough shape to chamber.

These brass shotshells are amazingly resiliant and handled the re-sizing with aplomb. After cutting to length I did most the re-sizing without annealing. If they are too soft they'll have a tendancy to develope folds and creases. Once the majority of sizing was done I annealed them and finished. It was easy to do.

As they are they work very well. The rim is slightly undersize, but the extractor does a fine job and that hasn't been an issue. I'd also thought of slitting some thin brass tube and soldering it around the casehead, but after using the paper at first, the subsequent firings showed there was no need for it.

These cases sell for about $9-$11/25 depending upon size. The 40 I altered have been fired over 20 times each and are still going strong. I anneal them about every 6-7 firings. Loads aren't real high pressure. From the 20" barrel a 300gr slug is going a bit over 1200 fps. A real fun little carbine.

Rick

No pictures or drawings in my meager collection. It does look like a simple slightly tapered cartridge.
Looks like a easy job for CNC lathe . A chamber cast with Cerrosafe is definitly the first thing to do. Could easily be turned out of 3/4 brass stock on a manual machine (sounds like a boring job though).

That is much more and better info than I expected, thanks so much for the instruction and education. The item is stored a good long ways away so the chamber cast will have to wait until next summer. I may have to send the cerrosafe on ahead to avoid forgetting it. still would like to see a proper profile if one could be gotten anywhere but as you say, the cast is the best witness of what is really there. I have adequate machinery available to run the die, need some time with the item and then the machines.

A few more questions on your die making: do you bore undersize and grind/polish the die or just bore and handlap/polish? Im presuming these are 4130 or some hardenable type ( the rod was probably a medium carbon steel of some type possibly about this range of carbon)and later hardened for use? would you say it probably would not be any easier ( or would it??) to make up a reamer ( of 0-1 or W-1 drill rod) and final cut the forming die with it? Im thinking this might get the axes concentric and make polishing easier. (Im still a little better at cutting on the outside than the inside. have toolpost grinder and other gear so can polish the outside)

Any comment on whether this is strictly a bonafide blackpowder or if should / should not be used with other substitutes? ( im not thinking about pressure issues, more about using blackpowder and the cleaning issues.)

I am completely new to BP loading but understand well about the 209 etc. Is there any reason to use specific berdan or historically accurate primers or is it kosher/better to use whatever primer can be gotten to work in the cartridge. any references to good literature on this topic would be appreciated.

Im almost given up hope of finding any wanzel cartridges but I know the owner would be quite proud to say "these are handmade cartridges - and they work" regardless of the historical accuracy of the primers. nobody in his audience would likely know either but it sure would get passed around at the vets club, I can guarantee that. he has a same-era musket that will probably be the next information and restoration challenge even though it will probably never be fired ... or maybe some day on a new-year's celebration like when they used to do in this country.
In each generation some are chosen to carry the banner in their day and to pass the torch on in time. These items had passed to him about 25 years ago and someday will proceed on down. it will be nice for him to have a few rounds even for ceremonial use. he is a former signal corps Lt. from the korean era so he understands the arms and the allure of their history but seldom uses any now. I have been thinking of trying to find out more about this for some time but dont often see the item, glad now that I got some good progress made and info, and can proceed. Im wondering how to wangle a chamber cast by remote control ( hmm, I have some relatives in that area, I wonder... I've got some homework to do there)

Many thanks again to Buckshot, Barnsley, et al. its guys like you that help the rest of us that really make the case for us helping the next guy. I will try to post some progress if I can ever get anything going in reasonable time.

I made a set of dies for 7.65 French long (identical to .30 Pederson device cartridge)out of cold rolled,
bored on lathe (using compound and tiny boring bar) and simply polished with split rod and flap of sandpaper. Seemed durable enough. I would use regular Large Rifle size primers and standard flash hole diameter. I don't think that short slightly tapered cartridge will wear out the dies.

......I didn't harden the dies as I didn't feel it was necessary. The brass is tumbled clean, lubed and sized. The main reason dies are hardened in the first place is probably as a precaution to being scratched by dirty brass. The die manufacturer would then be blamed.

Since I was the die manufacturer AND responsible for the brass I keep it clean. I did not polish or grind the die interior, as I think you're asking. The boring bar did a good job in the first place. I then poured a lead lap and used some 320 Clover and oil to knock off any fuzz and that was it.

" would you say it probably would not be any easier ( or would it??) to make up a reamer ( of 0-1 or W-1 drill rod) and final cut the forming die with it? Im thinking this might get the axes concentric and make polishing easier."

Nope, not easier or better so far as I can see to make a reamer. The boring bar did just fine. With a reamer you've got to turn it to shape, cut the flutes, harden the thing and then stone it. These old cartridges were very simple, and had no sharp angles to them. A boring bar does just fine.

"I am completely new to BP loading but understand well about the 209 etc. Is there any reason to use specific berdan or historically accurate primers or is it kosher/better to use whatever primer can be gotten to work in the cartridge. any references to good literature on this topic would be appreciated."

A Boxer primer is just so much easier to work with. Berdan primers are not only hard to get, the dual offset flash holes make them tough to de-prime. So I just drilled the whole thing out and used 209's.

If you were to use the Mag-Tech brass shotshell as a parent case, the new ones are pocketed for Boxer type large pistol primers. FYI, Graf & Son does import the PMC .217" std type Berdan primer if you DO wish to make things harder on yourself

Rick