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2008 vf2

conceptsmachine

Aluminum
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Location
DeSoto, IA
Hey guys, wondering if anyone can help me out? Never had this happen before in all my years.
I was machining some plastic parts today on a vacuum fixture. 12 tools in the program, 6.30 cycle time. Vacuum fixture part. Running away, just hitting the start button. Was on about part number 70 When CRUNCH!!!! I have H and T match on in parameters. It was supposed to pick up tool 3 but it somehow grabbed 7 and thought it had the right tool and it smashed it. First time this machine had ever crashed. I was proud of the record haha.
Anyone know what might have happened and anything I can check?
It reset the tool atc somehow because my tools where all mixed up. I needed to offset all down .01
And also reface my fixture. Stinks man...
So after I did the ATC reset it wouldn't change one on the t3...kept on giving me an alarm. Finally took after calling up different tools. It just didn't want to take t3, but finally it took. Put all my tools back in and started making parts again. I'm afraid it may happen again... :(
The machine started dropping tools a week or so ago... wouldn't clamp in time. Only did it a couple times and it seemed it did it when the machine was very stuffy with coolant mist and plastic chips.
Is it just a.bunch of bad luck at once or is something going wrong with my ATC and draw bar?
:(
I took off the ATC cover and made sure all was clean. Looked like the proximity switch was working right, but it was a bit dirty so I cleaned it good.
Thanks for any tips.
 
Hey guys, wondering if anyone can help me out? Never had this happen before in all my years.
I was machining some plastic parts today on a vacuum fixture. 12 tools in the program, 6.30 cycle time. Vacuum fixture part. Running away, just hitting the start button. Was on about part number 70 When CRUNCH!!!! I have H and T match on in parameters. It was supposed to pick up tool 3 but it somehow grabbed 7 and thought it had the right tool and it smashed it. First time this machine had ever crashed. I was proud of the record haha.
Anyone know what might have happened and anything I can check?
It reset the tool atc somehow because my tools where all mixed up. I needed to offset all down .01
And also reface my fixture. Stinks man...
So after I did the ATC reset it wouldn't change one on the t3...kept on giving me an alarm. Finally took after calling up different tools. It just didn't want to take t3, but finally it took. Put all my tools back in and started making parts again. I'm afraid it may happen again... :(
The machine started dropping tools a week or so ago... wouldn't clamp in time. Only did it a couple times and it seemed it did it when the machine was very stuffy with coolant mist and plastic chips.
Is it just a.bunch of bad luck at once or is something going wrong with my ATC and draw bar?
:(
I took off the ATC cover and made sure all was clean. Looked like the proximity switch was working right, but it was a bit dirty so I cleaned it good.
Thanks for any tips.

Is this a side mount tool changer or umbrella style?

First thoughts are that you had a bad read on the switch that reads Pocket#1 causing the tool order to become mixed up. But depending on the tool changer style, it could be other things also.

What exactly was going on with T3 when it wouldn't change? What was the machine doing? What alarm were you getting when it wouldn't change
 
Thanks for the reply. Sorry for my late response.
It's a side mount tool changer. I don't have the alarm...i was irritated so i just kept reseting. It said something with several conditions of the tool changer. It wouldn't allow the tool pocket to come down and change out. Instead I called up a different tool and eventually it allowed tool 3 to be changed out

Today I had it drop a tool before the end of the program. Like the draw bar didn't clamp before the arm swung out.
It did the same thing midway thru a 10 tool program a week ago. It would also just stop before it even tried to perform the tool change a couple times.
 
Check your air-pressure/volume.
Does the pocket drop down slowly?
Have you had any other alarms? (spindle drive? axis drive?)
Sometimes when you perform a TC recovery, your pocket #'s will get messed up.
I still have not figured out the rhyme/reason to that. As sometimes it is just two pockets. Sometimes all pockets.
But, after you perform a TC recovery and it tells you to check your pocket #'s? Do it!
 
Try manually actuating the tool release on the spindle to see if the action sounds fast (solenoids and air flow immediately stop or start with button pressing), or if there's delays or slow action of the tool release piston.

You may have contaminated air lines and TRP/solenoids, if that's the case tool retention can fail. If you're not certain of the results, video the tests with sound, and give us a link to it for analysis.
 
It sounds like a possible bad switch somewhere. If tools are dropping out of the spindle, the controller may be getting a false switch reading and allowing the tool release piston to energize when it shouldn't.

I would need a very detailed chain of events including alarms to comment much more. Speculating with the given information can lead down several very different paths.

The best thing, and sometimes the hardest, is to get the machine to replicate the alarm somewhat consistently. When the problem comes up, try to take mental note of what exactly is going on with the machine. Tool falls out: is this after a tool change call (M06) or does it happen at random times? What alarm are present, you can look them up in the history as well? If alarms are carousel related, what is the state of the carousel and or pocket when the alarm happens?

If your issues only happen during tool change cycles, then create a simple program that does nothing but change tools. I frequently make MDI programs that will change 5 or 6 tools with a 3 second dwell in between. I will loop this with a M99 and will let it run for hours if needed just so I can watch what is happening as best as possible. Even resetting after an alarm, just to replicate the issue as much as needed to accurately assess the issue.

This does not give you much for answers, but hopefully gives you a little direction to track the issue down somewhat.

Good luck!
 
Thanks for the replies.
I have the alarm messages but I don't think they will help. Reason why is I've been watching it. What happens is it doesn't clamp on the tool before the arm swings out. It only happens once the machine is warmed up and it starts warning up in the shop. Sounds like maybe moisture in the lines. Even though it's never happened before- since I've gotten it. It's a 2008 model.
The codes it threw were. 130 tool unclaimed and a 625 carousel position error. I slowed down the arm out position and it will clamp every time but when the arm swings out it twists the tool and it won't be lined up with the collar guides...then throws the alarm 130.
What can I do about the moisture or solonoids...maybe they are bad.
Yes, I've noticed a difference from manual clamping. Sometimes it sounds cranky or delays or is faster when I push the button.
Thanks for all the help!
Jim
 
If I were you..
With today's weather where you are: 88°F (31°C), 52% Humidity. I would invest in a refrigerated air dryer for this machine alone or one big enough for the whole shop.

Don't say you cannot afford it - you cannot afford not to have it!

Just this sort of maintenance issue will happen over and over and cost more that the dryer will. For now - check at all the fittings and solenoids for a clean dry pathway, clean and lube the drawbar catch balls [see manual for details]

Watch air pressure!
 
To lube the catch balls, just use wd 40 up into the spindle balls that are seen?
I'm not certain but with rapid tool unclamp by pressing the switch, sometimes I'll just hear a sucking sound and not the clunk.
I think I may need to take off the spindle shroud and check the solinoids. I'm afraid of getting into a job half a day and then it starts dropping tools again. I'm gonna replace the air regulator filter. Does anyone have that part number? Depending on the price of the solinoids, may just replace those too, but I'll lift off the shroud and check. Lifting shroud is fun....i remember doing it a while back. :(
 
This is what I think is happening. The sound should be the same every time the release button is pushed. It's not what is happening. Sometimes I hear just a hiss and sometimes a clink or a dull clank. It doesn't happen until I've got about 1/2 day into using the mill...with very misty wet conditions inside machine.
 
I've never had a haas just space-out and grab the wrong tool in 20 years...

Since there are mechanical issues there are basically two possibilities:
1. whatever the mechanical issue, switches didn't get tripped to cause the problem. which i don't rate very likely.
2. If a tool change restore was implemented, the tools #'s weren't verified per on screen instructions, which i rate much more likely.

there's always a stone-simple explanation.
 
dissemble the tool change arm and re-grease. (i.e. sheet metal covers over springs and stuff) They are pretty simple. That might fix the tool dropping... depending when and where they are being dropped.
 
To lube the catch balls, just use wd 40 up into the spindle balls that are seen?
I'm not certain but with rapid tool unclamp by pressing the switch, sometimes I'll just hear a sucking sound and not the clunk.
I think I may need to take off the spindle shroud and check the solinoids. I'm afraid of getting into a job half a day and then it starts dropping tools again. I'm gonna replace the air regulator filter. Does anyone have that part number? Depending on the price of the solinoids, may just replace those too, but I'll lift off the shroud and check. Lifting shroud is fun....i remember doing it a while back. :(

there is an in-line flapper-vlave (my name, not the official) that can cause intermittent tool release problems. its a cheap fix every couple years for me.
 
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Yes, I've never had it happen in all 28 years of machining. It was running smooth as ever... then crash... same part on xx one of the day in a simple vacuum fixture on and off.
Thing is, it should have thrown out the h and t not matched alarm but it thought it had the right tool #4 but in fact it had tool #7 in the spindle.
I've never had a crash on this machine for all 9 years I've owned it, until then. It was a good streak. My vf3 that I traded in had a few user error crashes ;)
I don't recall making any offsets or dropping any tools prior to the crash. I'm not 100% sure but I thought it was just hit the start button rhythm.
 
Now that you have a firmer idea of what's happening, I'd try to get Haastec's attention again, perhaps pm him if he doesn't see the new posts.

I'd also strongly suggest getting an air dryer, it can make a big difference in the reliable operation of air solenoids and such.
 
WD-40 you need to think of as a cleaner not a lubricant. It will leave a sticky residue that makes the problem worse.

Take a bright flashlight and mirror and look up into spindle, hose the hell out of it with WD and wait a moment, cycle tool release several times and repeat until the catch balls and everything looks clear. Squirt Isopropyl Alcohol (same stuff you get at the drugstore for home use)repeat this cleaning. Hold down release for a few seconds then wipe taper with a clean rag wet with way lube.

Finish up with a dab of Lucas oil Red "N" Tacky [any quality water resistant grease will do] on a 1/4 wood dowel - Jam that blob up where the catch balls are work it a round then hold a tool up into spindle while cycling tool release several times. Remove tool and wipe taper and all clean with dry rag.

I do this as part of my clean up routine.

For the air solenoids and lines - Isopropyl Alcohol is the cleaner of choice, harmless to rubber and plastic, gets out the water and most scrunge. I have rescued machines with a healthy squirt in the line and cycle the tool release until it runs dry.

I cannot stress enough the value of clean dry air!

I cannot testify it will solve the wrong tool problem but it removes doubt and many other issues.
 
Guys, thanks a lot. I'll do exactly as you say.
I looked up into the spindle, balls look good and clean. But down by where the draw bar lowers was a but dirty. I used some lube to clean but I'll go back and clean. As stated.
I ran the tool release several times and have video. The tool release works great it's when it's pressed the problem is when it's released. The randomly it will not retract quick enough. It will sometimes clamp tool very slowly, this is how it drops them. Sounds like a hiss...and it slowly clamps as most of the time it clamps quickly with no hissssssssssssss
 
I just put some isopropyl alcohol in the line and started to actuate the unclamp and it had a much harder release after I held it down for a bit...problem is I blew out the site glass in the regulator/filter housing. Damn...i didn't think the alcohol with bother anything but it didn't like that peice anyway.
Anyone know if you gotta buy the whole thing?
 
Blew out the site glass?? There some oils that will weaken acrylic and polycarbonate, never had an issue with IPA.

With a slow release you may have a clogged exhaust filter, you will have to remove cover on top of spindle to access. You should be able to remove and clean it..
The next thing could be your drawbar need a good cleaning and lubrication.. the manual covers how to R&R it.

Looks like:

P1010441.jpg
 
Conceptsmachine,

You have several different issues going on that may or may not be related to each other.

I have been working on a machine recently that for over a year was plagued with intermittent carousel positioning alarms and carousel rotate faults that would go away for months at a time, then finally it started to load the wrong tools. I ended up replacing the air piston that drives the pocked up/down to fix rotate fault alarm. For the carousel positioning alarm and loading the wrong tool issue, I tried replacing the carousel home switch and in position switch with no luck. Replaced them again, then after much more troubleshooting, I finally replaced the roller style switches that it came with for proximity switches, and so far the machine has been trouble free.

I mention all of this, because I don't believe that you have one single root cause for your issues. If it were me, I would put replacing the solenoids on the back burner for now as I doubt they are the cause of all your problems. Plus, a switch is much cheaper than a solenoid to replace if you are just going to throw parts at the problem.

Like I said before about picking up the wrong tool, this condition is most likely to do with the carousel home switch.

For your intermittent and slow to retract tool release, I would check the solenoid exhaust as mentioned already. Verify in diagnostics if the switches are getting triggered properly. Check the spring and retaining clip for the spring on the tool release piston (TRP). Also, I have had to replace O-rings in the TRP assembly because it was slow to retract. You will also need to determine if the drawbar is slow to retract or if the TRP is slow to retract.

Again, you have a lot of different things going on, so the more detailed your information is the better all of us can assist. Earlier in the string you mentioned that you didn't think the alarm messages would help; alarm messages are CRITICAL in helping to determine what is going on.

Once you have things all repaired, then work on drying out your air supply and possibly exhausting the machine enclosure if the conditions are as bad as you say.
 








 
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