Adding External 4th Axis To Machine Already With Internal 4th Axis

Zahnrad Kopf · Oct 2, 2016

I have an question about adding an external ( stand alone ) Haas Electronic Indexer ( S5C ) to a VF with an already working 4th. ( HRTA6 ) My understanding is that this is normally done by adding RS232 Input and Output cables to the main control for integration as a 4th Axis. But in my case, I think I desire to use this with the external relay output/input function. That is to say, strictly as an indexer. Not a live 4th.

There are times when I need to index work that exists on an angle, instead of aligned parallel with an Axis. Sticking an indexer on an angle plate, triggering ( and acknowledging ) it with the control, while looping the cutting portion of the program seems like a very good way for me to accomplish this. Otherwise, I'm looking at building a monster Sine/Angle plate for the HRTA6 ( monster for the rigidity ), or moving into a 5 Axis machine. The latter is out of the question for the moment, and the former is more work than I have desire or time for at the moment. So this looks pretty attractive to me as we already own a Haas S5C kit.

Does anyone know how to accomplish adding this to a machine? Is it as simple as wiring to two of the external relay headers ( M22 / M23 / M24 ) , presumably by purchasing a cable from the HFO or DIYHAAS?

Thanks for any insights you can provide.

wheelieking71 · Oct 6, 2016

I have definitely seen a 5C rotary mounted on a 4th with platter (HA5C on an HRT210).
But, I don't know how he accomplished it.

Zahnrad Kopf · Oct 6, 2016

wheelieking71 said:
I have definitely seen a 5C rotary mounted on a 4th with platter (HA5C on an HRT210).
But, I don't know how he accomplished it.

I have been meaning to get back here and update this but just can't find enough time in a day...

Originally, I was speaking of mounting by itself on another part of the table and running as another device. Turns out, it's quite simple actually. One uses the external relay option to drive it. And, mine actually still had the option option cable to accomplish this, with it.

However, in addition to this, it did occur to me to mount it to the HRT 4th in the machine and accomplish positional 5ax, and I will absolutely doing this, later. Count on it.

Atomkinder · Oct 6, 2016

Will post photos on IG I presume? :cheers:

6061Mike · Oct 6, 2016

We used to have two 4 axis and a 5c in a vf4. I remember switching the 'standard' 4 axis on the right side of table with the 5c by switching cables and changing the parameter in control, but for the life of me I don't remember how we had the other 4th axis hooked up...

Larry Dickman · Oct 6, 2016

I have done this and it worked quite well. I mounted a Hass 6" rotary indexer onto a Mazak horizontal with a 4th. I had a bunch of parts that needed to be rotated around it's axis, but at 2 different angles. Our Fanuc tech just wired in a relay for the index/ complete signals. Instant 5 axis.

wheelieking71 · Oct 6, 2016

Zahnrad Kopf said:
I have been meaning to get back here and update this but just can't find enough time in a day...

Originally, I was speaking of mounting by itself on another part of the table and running as another device. Turns out, it's quite simple actually. One uses the external relay option to drive it. And, mine actually still had the option option cable to accomplish this, with it.

However, in addition to this, it did occur to me to mount it to the HRT 4th in the machine and accomplish positional 5ax, and I will absolutely doing this, later. Count on it.

Please do update when you get it dialed!
I have an HRT210, machines that are 4th capable, and a HAAS control box. All I need is an HA5C!

Zahnrad Kopf · Oct 6, 2016

Atomkinder said:
Will post photos on IG I presume?

LOL. I guess so, if you really want me to. I can't imagine that it's as interesting as so much other stuff, there.

The S5C is already up there, for what it's worth.

Atomkinder · Oct 6, 2016

I meant of the indexer on the rotary

Zahnrad Kopf · Oct 6, 2016

Atomkinder said:
I meant of the indexer on the rotary

Of course.

Same Bat Channel. Same Bat Time. ... ...

Larry Dickman · Oct 6, 2016

Here's a 5C mounted on a HRT210 that's set up for full simultaneous 5X. Without a part or fixture installed, A will rotate a full 360 without hitting the table.

wheelieking71 · Oct 6, 2016

Larry Dickman said:
View attachment 181865

Here's a 5C mounted on a HRT210 that's set up for full simultaneous 5X. Without a part or fixture installed, A will rotate a full 360 without hitting the table.

Is your machine wired for 5x? Or are you using a box?

Zahnrad Kopf · Oct 6, 2016

Thanks, Larry. Are you using a pneumatic closer, or the manual one? And, same question as wheelieking71.

Larry Dickman · Oct 6, 2016

Zahnrad Kopf said:
Thanks, Larry. Are you using a pneumatic closer, or the manual one? And, same question as wheelieking71.

Machines are all wired for 5x. I do a lot of impellers. But if your only indexing, a control box would work fine. Most of the time I'm not using collets, I thread a fixture over the top. But the few times I have used a collet, I use a manual draw tube. I cut a hole in the bottom of the adapter so I could get a socket on it.

wheelieking71 · Oct 6, 2016

Good stuff Larry! Thanks for the ideas. I saved your pic for reference of course!

Seems like a great way to save $20k over buying a trunnion if a guys parts are small enough that, that get-up is rigid enough.
(I have some of those. Working on them now. 6 sided parts that get 7 operations :ack2:

)

Larry Dickman · Oct 6, 2016

wheelieking71 said:
Good stuff Larry! Thanks for the ideas. I saved your pic for reference of course!

Seems like a great way to save $20k over buying a trunnion if a guys parts are small enough that, that get-up is rigid enough.
(I have some of those. Working on them now. 6 sided parts that get 7 operations )

When I first got this together, rigidity was my biggest concern. I was pleasantly surprised. I can go in with a 1/2" using HSM and go at it 200 ipm with no problems at all. I run parts 4" dia x 6" long without a problem, and I run impellers from 2" dia to 8" dia. Profiles always come out within a couple thou so it's plenty rigid and super accurate.

Zahnrad Kopf · Oct 6, 2016

Larry Dickman said:
When I first got this together, rigidity was my biggest concern. I was pleasantly surprised. I can go in with a 1/2" using HSM and go at it 200 ipm with no problems at all. I run parts 4" dia x 6" long without a problem, and I run impellers from 2" dia to 8" dia. Profiles always come out within a couple thou so it's plenty rigid and super accurate.

Larry, that is very interesting and encouraging to hear. Thank you. You have me completely wondering what is involved for making an already 4ax machine 5ax capable... Speaking of rigidity - Is that plate of yours really just 1" plate bolted together???? There has to be more to it than that. Yes?

If you would not mind, I am very interested in your fixturing. Not that I have any needs for 5ax at the moment. Simply more from an interest in continuing to learn point of view... I am curious about your using the spindle nose threads as opposed to a 5C fixture plate. ( like the kind that magnets mount to for grinding, turning, etc... Also, are you putting a little dovetail vise up there? Inquiring minds and all that... :cool:

Larry Dickman · Oct 6, 2016

Zahnrad Kopf said:
Larry, that is very interesting and encouraging to hear. Thank you. You have me completely wondering what is involved for making an already 4ax machine 5ax capable... Speaking of rigidity - Is that plate of yours really just 1" plate bolted together???? There has to be more to it than that. Yes?

If you would not mind, I am very interested in your fixturing. Not that I have any needs for 5ax at the moment. Simply more from an interest in continuing to learn point of view... I am curious about your using the spindle nose threads as opposed to a 5C fixture plate. ( like the kind that magnets mount to for grinding, turning, etc... Also, are you putting a little dovetail vise up there? Inquiring minds and all that...

It's constructed from 1" J20 torchcuts and all the pieces are bolted and pinned. The trick is getting the rotary centers in line. The OD of the spindle had a diameter for locating so I bore that diameter into the fixture and threadmill the thread. Then I used a center stud to tie it down so it cant spin off. That's the one thing I've not been able to figure out with a 5C fixture plate. They're not intended for milling, so how do you keep one from unscrewing itself? 5C vises are still in the works. I would love to go out and get a couple Lang setups, but for the same money I'd rather have a new car.

wheelieking71 · Oct 6, 2016

Zahnrad Kopf said:
Speaking of rigidity - Is that plate of yours really just 1" plate bolted together???? There has to be more to it than that. Yes?

Just makin' sure you saw the third plate.......

Zahnrad Kopf · Oct 6, 2016

Larry Dickman said:
It's constructed from 1" J20 torchcuts and all the pieces are bolted and pinned. trunnion table

Really?!?!? I have to admit to being slightly surprised at that, when combined with your statement about rigidity. Don't get me wrong - I believe you. I'm just surprised is all.

Larry Dickman said:
That's the one thing I've not been able to figure out with a 5C fixture plate. They're not intended for milling, so how do you keep one from unscrewing itself? 5C vises are still in the works. I would love to go out and get a couple Lang setups, but for the same money I'd rather have a new car.

That is exactly why I was wondering why you wouldn't use on of the 5C plates like this. ( attached ) They're solid. I use them for many, many, many types of things around the shop. :cool:

One could mount fixturing or a small dovetail vise on them easily.

Adding External 4th Axis To Machine Already With Internal 4th Axis

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