Haas controls voids warranty , anyone deal with this?

Looking at a new haas vf3, They tell me that they wont warranty the controls or anything electrical if I run the mill with a cnc rotary phase converter. Lot of money to spend for no warranty, also if it ruins it what good is it warranty or not. Has anyone been down this road? Maybe there are better controls out there that will work fine with a cnc rotary phase converter? Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks

A lot of people run phase converters on true industrial controls. I don't know how any of the other machine builders feel about converters. I would first try it on something less expensive. Used machines are plentiful these days.

Sure said:

Looking at a new haas vf3, They tell me that they wont warranty the controls or anything electrical if I run the mill with a cnc rotary phase converter. Lot of money to spend for no warranty, also if it ruins it what good is it warranty or not. Has anyone been down this road? Maybe there are better controls out there that will work fine with a cnc rotary phase converter? Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks

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Call the factory and ask them about warranty coverage while using a phase converter for the most accurate information. If they say it is okay, find out any particular requirements for proper connections and above all else, get any approvals in writing.

Did your local sales rep tell you this?

I ran machines that were on rotary phase converters and the techs never seemed to bat an eye at it.

haastec said:

Call the factory and ask them about warranty coverage while using a phase converter for the most accurate information. If they say it is okay, find out any particular requirements for proper connections and above all else, get any approvals in writing.

Did your local sales rep tell you this?

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No they didn't, I actually did what you said I went and called the factory direct. Would like to buy a new haas mill, But cant when the factory says voids warranty. They will still warranty mechanicals of the mill, NO ELECTRONICS will be warrantied. They even said that they know a lot of people are running their mills on phase converters. But they still tell me NO WARRANTY. That tells me something. It is an issue for the mill or they wouldn't be so persistent with saying that. I wanted to hear from guys with haas mills on phase converters and what units they were using and how long and if they had any issue. I don't want to gamble on something as simple as this, The power to run the mill.

Hi Sure. If you follow all the questions on this board about rpc's you will see why Haas does not want to trust that people will CORRECTLY install, or use a high quality phase converter. For instance, you mention a 'cnc rotary phase converter'. I have no idea exactly what that term means.

I suggest you question Haas again, specifying exactly what phase converter model you have in mind. Using something like a Phase Perfect digital phase converter is much different that saying "I'm building my own rotary unit using an old 30 hp three phase motor and some caps I found". Won't hurt to ask!

It's not more or less a issue for a HAAS Mill then any other in theory, that would depend on the kind of protection is built into it voltage fluxuations,Harmonics, sine wave etc.

Nor Haas or any other manufacturer can know what kind of power you supply it with.
Rotary phase converters in the US is anything from home made junk, to a cheap chinese version or a properly built one with safety measures to control the generated 'third leg' (phase).

It's pretty similar to running a three phase motor from single phase power with a capacitor wired in to give it 'three phase' power.

Depending on your Rotary converter and the quality of the three phase power it gives out, it can effect your three phase motors negatively, as instability in voltage on the generated third leg will shorten a motors life span to some degree.
Also a RPC on the edge of it's capactity, or that's simply underdimensioned will tend to promote such instabilities, and there is a difference in how they're built on how well they counteract this.


The big issue is really when it comes to the Electronics and control portion of the mill.
Witch kind of also is obvious from the warranty note.

The real problems can come when that generated 'thrid leg' (phase) is used to supply the control power to the machine.
Continious and inconsistent voltage rises and drops, harmonics issues is simply not something normal 12 or 24 DC control systems handles very well at all.

This can of course be measured and tested, and with quality equipment it's normally not a issue under normal operation.
But you can still expect to see inconsistencies when the load changes sufficiently.

A motor-generator would be a better choice. but the problem there might be economy.
But these days you also get microprocessor controlled RPC's with pure sinewave and consistent voltage output free from harmonics.
And there is also come pure sine wave inverters to the market of varying quality witch could do the job depending on size, but they again have a few other challenges.

Now i'm not a machinist by profession and thereby i have never seen inside the cabinet of a HAAS or know how it's built up electrically, neither are they very common here.
Most of my year at 'normal work i spend troubleshooting ,installing and testing of 24v PLC control systems or equipment controlled by them.
So i do have a clue as to what i am talking about.

And a good advice to anyone using a RPC on equipment using a normal (not switching) power supply is to ensure the two 'legs' supplied to it is not the leg generated by the RPC.
As it will most likely save you money and headache in the long run.

Some or lot of homework is required and you have started.

Many are already doing what you are proposing and Haas has likely been burned enough times to simply state that you need to be in a real commercial building with correct power.

However there must be suitable sources of valid power generating equipment and if yiu wish to spend the bucks you may be okay.

First others here have suggested well known products so go to the home of those products and seek their engineering/ sales folks to see what they have to say.

See if any can work with Haas to certify their unit as it would be win - win for all.

Other option would be to seek an aftermarket warranty plan but that could also be a mess.

Good luck!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk

Will the VF3 run on single phase? I know my TM2 will. I know they are completely different machines so just throwing this out there

Tony Quiring said:

Many are already doing what you are proposing and Haas has likely been burned enough times to simply state that you need to be in a real commercial building with correct power.

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This is really what it comes down to. We tend to be creative types with an entreprenurial bent, and starting a shop in an other than commercial or industrial zone is an irresisible challenge. But at some point (like when you start buying new machining centers) it makes sense to protect your investment and your sweat equity by putting it in a place where the power company will come out and adjust your voltage free of charge for the specific purpose of protecting your equipment. Also, if you have to earn a profit, the efficiency of your power counts. I didn't care about the parasitic losses associated with the capacitor-generated third leg in my basement; I was happy enough just to be able to run a Bridgeport. But now with a monthly electric bill approaching $4K that reduced efficiency would be absolutely untenable. If you have ambitious plans, maybe better to bite the bullet now and get your machines on 3 phase power, whatever it takes.

Oldwrench said:

This is really what it comes down to. We tend to be creative types with an entreprenurial bent, and starting a shop in an other than commercial or industrial zone is an irresisible challenge. But at some point (like when you start buying new machining centers) it makes sense to protect your investment and your sweat equity by putting it in a place where the power company will come out and adjust your voltage free of charge for the specific purpose of protecting your equipment. Also, if you have to earn a profit, the efficiency of your power counts. I didn't care about the parasitic losses associated with the capacitor-generated third leg in my basement; I was happy enough just to be able to run a Bridgeport. But now with a monthly electric bill approaching $4K that reduced efficiency would be absolutely untenable. If you have ambitious plans, maybe better to bite the bullet now and get your machines on 3 phase power, whatever it takes.

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Whatever it takes..for me, I was quoted in writing 1.6 million to run 3phase 1,880 yards to my (I owned it) commercial building.
It already had 10 units each with 600 amp 240 volt single phase service.
I had many machine tool company's say "yea just put in 3phase and you will be good to go" I would pull out that quote..then it was quiet time

At that time I had 5 HAAS verticals each with their own rotary. Never had a problem, Haas never said boo.
The ones I bought in the late 90's were 3500rpm, loud, and $5500 each
The ones you can get today are soooo much better 1750rpm and less than half that price.

Fine and dandy..but your problem is the machine tool dealer said no go. You cant buy a new machine like that. If you get someone from haas to say yes..make sure it is in writing. I wonder if this has something to do with the new control.
My next step would be to go to the big dog at your local HFO..not the salesman and ask for intervention on your behalf. You calling Oxnard is one thing, the owner of the HFO calling is quite another.
If quality of power is the real concern (and not just another way to say FU) I would volunteer to install the converter for their techs to verify good 3rd leg power
Gary

Rotary Phase

Cycle1000 said:

Whatever it takes..for me, I was quoted in writing 1.6 million to run 3phase 1,880 yards to my (I owned it) commercial building.
It already had 10 units each with 600 amp 240 volt single phase service.
I had many machine tool company's say "yea just put in 3phase and you will be good to go" I would pull out that quote..then it was quiet time

At that time I had 5 HAAS verticals each with their own rotary. Never had a problem, Haas never said boo.
The ones I bought in the late 90's were 3500rpm, loud, and $5500 each
The ones you can get today are soooo much better 1750rpm and less than half that price.

Fine and dandy..but your problem is the machine tool dealer said no go. You cant buy a new machine like that. If you get someone from haas to say yes..make sure it is in writing. I wonder if this has something to do with the new control.
My next step would be to go to the big dog at your local HFO..not the salesman and ask for intervention on your behalf. You calling Oxnard is one thing, the owner of the HFO calling is quite another.
If quality of power is the real concern (and not just another way to say FU) I would volunteer to install the converter for their techs to verify good 3rd leg power
Gary

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Cycle 1000 that is very interesting that price they wanted to run the power to your commercial building. I have heard some big numbers but that I have never heard of. On your mills that you run a rotary for each one, What size HP are you running for each with no issues?

Yea that price was in 2001..
So I believe the last 2 I bought were from the company in the link below. Not sure as it has been a while. I went with the 20hp for each one.
I watched the video on that page, and it showed a panel with 3 voltage meters..one for each leg. I would get that option as it would make it easy to just look over and see what it is doing without dragging out the fluke.
You can get any configuration you want/need from them as they build them right there. Great tech support.
Always get one with the separate panel on the wall and not mounted on the motor. Enclosures vibrate..
AR Series American Rotary

Cheaper than Gary's, but we're running something like 200 yards (wire length) for a new 3 phase install, 800A of 208, half overhead and half underground, for $38,000 or so.

I also have a Haas on an American Rotary phase converter and have had no issues to do with voltage. Been running fine since '07.

I wonder if you can put the phase converter in, show your HFO that you do indeed have good quality power for the machine, and have them sign off on it?

Cycle1000 said:

Whatever it takes..for me, I was quoted in writing 1.6 million to run 3phase 1,880 yards to my (I owned it) commercial building.
It already had 10 units each with 600 amp 240 volt single phase service.

Gary

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No offense to Florida, nor am I an expert if they are in fact unique in that regard, but ...

A friend has just moved to FL 2 years ago ( Pensacola area me thinks ), but only moved his shop nearly 1 year later.
Why?
Because that's how long it took for him to find an industrial building ( to purchase ) that had 3PH service installed.
He said ( so that is what I have to go by ) that he had found buildings as large as 30,000sqf with nothing but single phase.

Perhaps someone from FL authority can explain the idiotic thinking behind that fucked up idea.

In your case Gary, I very highly doubt that you have 240V/600A x # of buildings, all supplied from a single transformer 1880 yards away.
Willing to bet that you have medium voltage supplied to each of the building, and each has it's own transformer.
Now, if the supply is coming from underground cables, then the 1.6M sounds somewhat reasonable for a new run, but, to be honest what really
should happen is a massacre of everyone in your POCO that had decided and then installed underground cable capable of single phase supply only
in the first place.

Three phase was 1880 yards away
Each unit had its own single phase transformer(and meter), overhead and across the alley..maybe 25ish yards away. It was fun to watch the meters spinning..if you looked hard enough you got dizzy and passed out.

Cant speak for all of FL but here in the Daytona area I was surprised at the number of buildings I first looked at that had massive amounts of 3 phase. Paying the monthly bill is the hard part.
Gary

We installed a Phase Perfect Digital Phase Converter. Haas said they would stand behind the warranty with this converter.

Guess they want to be certain clean reliable power supply to the machine...makes sense.

We have a new VF4 (april 2016) With a 480 transformer...

But

I did have a I/O board burn out on me already.

Also with the NGC I have had my Memory wiped out including all my VPS programs(which were sapose to be protected).

Haas updated the NGC controller last month, but with the update they took away my HSM trial. I had over 130/200 hours left on my trial. I guess they are switching that over to a 30 day trial. So that's going to be a $3000 bill to get that...

With the new update on the NGC, there has been freezing in jog mode. Meaning when I am jogging, it will freeze for a fraction of a second. Not a huge deal, but when it "unfreezes" it seems to play catchup (like when you switch axis' when still jogging you get that jerk) It has made me pucker a few times when setting my probe.

NGC graphics sucks. There is no speed control anymore. And if you have an alarm, it wont stop at the line of code. It will jump back to the start of program which is pointless for me troubleshooting.

Just giving you a heads up...

Cycle1000 said:

Whatever it takes..for me, I was quoted in writing 1.6 million to run 3phase 1,880 yards to my (I owned it) commercial building.
It already had 10 units each with 600 amp 240 volt single phase service.
I had many machine tool company's say "yea just put in 3phase and you will be good to go" I would pull out that quote..then it was quiet time
Gary

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That's a lot of money, but to be fair 1880 yards is over 1 mile. What was between the existing 3-phase and your building?