Haas TL-1 dead..... why?

Spencer in NH · Feb 21, 2015

I went to the shop today to work on a project, and upon powering up the TL-1 was met with three alarms:

102 - Servos Off
123 - Spindle Drive Fault
178 - Divide by Zero

Then it powered itself off in 10 seconds.

I tried again, and caught a text message in the very first screen, a text-only screen, which said something like "Warning - Low Battery."

I had never heard of a battery in this beast, and upon checking the maintenance section of the manual cannot find anything about a battery. It sure is behaving like it lost all its parameters, particularly in light of error 178.

And so, the TL-1 is dead in the water. I am NOT a happy camper. I put a call in to Trident HFO, today being a Saturday I guess they will call me back Monday.

I did not need this headache just now.

Can anyone help me out here? I *do* have a USB stick inside the electrical cabinet which I presume is for a parameter reload.

*sigh*

deanrach · Feb 21, 2015

Spencer,

I would wait for Dino's call (Trident). It may not require a service call - probably something he can help you with over the phone. These guys are good!

Dean in Maine

Spencer in NH · Feb 21, 2015

Thank you, Dean.

Your input is definitely salve for the wound. :-)

I'll survive the weekend. I was just hoping to make headway on a project.

Stay warm up there.

wrustle · Feb 21, 2015

That really sucks.....sorry to hear of your problem.

I just texted my friend with your info. I'll get back to you as soon as I hear from him.

I have service manuals at the shop and may be heading there in the morning depending on how bad this storm is. Will check if I don't hear back from him and let you know.

Later,
Russ

wrustle · Feb 21, 2015

Spencer, looks like you may have to wait until Monday after all.

Below is a link to the Haas Alarms. The 178 alarm sounds ugly.......sorry couldn't be more help.

http://www.haascnc.com/doclib/manual/alarms.pdf

Later,
Russ

Spencer in NH · Feb 21, 2015

Russ,

You rock.

I think it's going to turn out to be a backup battery, which I was unaware of. It just never gave me any warning.

I may have to spend time with my family.

:-)

Milland · Feb 21, 2015

Spencer,
I'll be at the MIT student shop Sunday morning, we have an older TL-1 there. If I can get access to the cabinet (it's tight quarters) I'll try to identify where the battery is so at least you can throw a voltmeter on yours.

Spencer in NH · Feb 21, 2015

You're too kind, sir.

And we have something in common.

A metallic rodent.

Thank you.

Spencer in NH · Feb 22, 2015

After a good night's sleep, I finally found this, the Haas Electrical Service Manual: http://diy.haascnc.com/sites/defaul...e_Manual_96-0284D_Rev_D_June_2011_English.pdf

In which a battery replacement is described for the main processor board.

I will wait to talk to Trident's service department, but I bet this is what I am going to be doing Tuesday afternoon. (After a FedEx delivery)

Spencer in NH · Feb 22, 2015

Found the battery.... It's not dead, it's VERY dead. 0.1-Volts-unloaded-dead.

Milland · Feb 22, 2015

Hi Spencer,
Finally had a student come in who helped me move some stuff out of the way to get access to our machine (probably not why he came to the shop...), and I've just come back from looking inside the cabinet. If your machine is similar to ours, the processor board was behind a shielding panel with a number of ground connections on it, in the upper left of the electronics enclosure? Not an obvious place to put a backup battery! If you think it will help, you may want to put in an external battery holder wired to the original board holes, and a secondary holder for the backup battery backup for when you have to change it over. Blarg, the Bridgeport ES Trak's a lot easier to find.

Also, while I do like to claim I got an MIT education while they paid me for it, I'm just a long-standing employee here, either full and part-time depending on the millennia. So ILTFP, perhaps because I avoided all the fire hoses...

Milland · Feb 22, 2015

Also, this thread may or may not be of interest: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/haas/replacing-battery-haas-control-206311/

Spencer in NH · Feb 22, 2015

Milland,

Thanks for the help. Yes, I have made it to that board, and had the same thought about an easier-to-access battery holder. But, that's an argument for a different day. I put a battery in, but now the system is giving me "KEYPAD NOT FOUND". I think I am destined to have a tech here this week. Sigh.

Well, as far at the 'Tute is concerned, I escaped in '83. Spent a great deal of time next door to the Hobby Shop in the Precision Paper Punching Lab. We should chat someday, perhaps over some grub at the Stud Center. I'll let you know if I am heading that way.

Anyway, I will give a full report after I get this TL-1 up and running again.

TimH · Feb 23, 2015

Spencer in NH said:
I went to the shop today to work on a project, and upon powering up the TL-1 was met with three alarms:

102 - Servos Off
123 - Spindle Drive Fault
178 - Divide by Zero

Then it powered itself off in 10 seconds.

I tried again, and caught a text message in the very first screen, a text-only screen, which said something like "Warning - Low Battery."

I had never heard of a battery in this beast, and upon checking the maintenance section of the manual cannot find anything about a battery. It sure is behaving like it lost all its parameters, particularly in light of error 178.

And so, the TL-1 is dead in the water. I am NOT a happy camper. I put a call in to Trident HFO, today being a Saturday I guess they will call me back Monday.

I did not need this headache just now.

Can anyone help me out here? I *do* have a USB stick inside the electrical cabinet which I presume is for a parameter reload.

*sigh*

I noticed the Low Battery warning this weekend on mine. It flashes on the screen during the boot up process. I ended up with a dead battery a while back What pain in the a$$ that was. Cost me about $400 the have stuff loaded back in, I won't even mention my piss poor back ups of my programs

Spencer in NH · Mar 3, 2015

My TL-1 is back up and running. Russ from Trident did good work, but honestly he was fighting some really bad engineering.

I have a writeup on my experience which I just sent to Haas. But, I will delay publishing it until I hear from them.

SIM · Mar 5, 2015

I do not understand the need to hide a battery deep inside the machine and hardwired to boot.

However...count your blessings. I had bought another brand machine used and on startup we found a problem which later turned out to be a dead battery. $11 buck for battery. However $700.00 for tech to drive here to diagnose and order battery and get back home, $700.00 for him to come back and install new battery deep inside machines control...scary close to other components so no way I was going to tackle it (especially as it was my 1st real CNC)...and $400 bucks for Parameters then 3 hours to load and modify parameters to this specific machine at $150/hr.

It is the reason I have Haas machines on my floor...still pricey and overly complicated to swap out a rechargeable battery...what would it take to create an external battery holder with an extra space to slide in a secondary battery to hold memory while you change the main battery....even if they had to add an extra 50 bucks to machines cost.

Milland · Mar 5, 2015

SIM said:
I do not understand the need to hide a battery deep inside the machine and hardwired to boot.

However...count your blessings. I had bought another brand machine used and on startup we found a problem which later turned out to be a dead battery. $11 buck for battery. However $700.00 for tech to drive here to diagnose and order battery and get back home, $700.00 for him to come back and install new battery deep inside machines control...scary close to other components so no way I was going to tackle it (especially as it was my 1st real CNC)...and $400 bucks for Parameters then 3 hours to load and modify parameters to this specific machine at $150/hr.

It is the reason I have Haas machines on my floor...still pricey and overly complicated to swap out a rechargeable battery...what would it take to create an external battery holder with an extra space to slide in a secondary battery to hold memory while you change the main battery....even if they had to add an extra 50 bucks to machines cost.

Sounds like a business opportunity, now I just have to learn how them damn electrons work. Are we due a lightening storm? I got a kite around here somewhere...

Edster · Mar 5, 2015

I had a 2002 SL-10 that gave me the low battery warning after I had it about 10 years. The TL-1 sitting next to it was a couple years newer so I just called the techs and had both batteries replaced.

IMO it's a PITA to have to unsolder and resolder in a battery. Put a plug on it. :dopeslap:

I also had a Fadal that was about 10 years older (1994) than the haas and had the battery soldered to the board. It never died though.

Fanuc with absolute encoders is the worst IMO. You have a control battery, a battery pack for the encoders, and this particular machine had a battery in the servo drive. Huge PITA!

The best are Okuma's. Absolute encoders that don't need battery backup. The older controls had only one battery and a procedure in the maintance mode to backup all the user files and machine settings, test the new battery, and restore the backups if needed. I just changed the battery in my MCV after 10 years. It was still good but I didn't want to chance it. The newer controls have a built in PC so there is no control battery at all. The only battery is a $2 CR2032 battery for the CMOS. If that one goes dead it's no big deal, no settings or files get lost.

Spencer in NH · Mar 12, 2015

Well, here is the short version of the end of the story.

First, the good news.

Haas responded very nicely to my letter detailing the painful battery loss event and our recovery from it. I made sure that they knew that Russ and his employer HFO Trident were very attentive, capable and professional. I did, however, express my well-qualified opinion that this design ... um ... sucked. In particular, the loss of the battery led to 7.25 hours of billable technician time to recover, and I found this grossly unacceptable.

Not to be completely negative, I offered specific design recommendations toward improving the situation.

The bad news is that the bill from Trident came to $1,082.50.

Haas and I came to an agreement, and they will be picking up the tab on this one. They were straight-shooters about that, and I am positively impressed with their response.

A friend of mine in the sales and support industry expressed his opinion that this situation was no accident, that this *is* the Haas business model. Make money on service. I don't really want to believe that, but I can't make an opposing argument.

Anyway, it's "case closed" for this particular event, but you can bet your life that I will be installing a better battery and battery-monitoring solution of my own design within the next year. Anyone interested in one?

Milland · Mar 12, 2015

Hi Spencer,
You should start a new thread with that offer, I think having a well designed replacement (or add-on) would be of interest to both lathe and mill owners. Especially if you can make it so the original battery can be left in place, and no soldering needed.

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