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Any 6061 finishing pics we could see ?

ifocusfilms

Plastic
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Location
USA Naples, FL
We're looking at a VF2 and had a few questions Haas head quarters couldn't answer. Our current machine isn't producing the finish we're after and think it boils down to a number of things. So we're looking to level up. Before you look at the pictures of our current finish, I'll add our machine is limit to 1.5HP, stepper driven, dovetail ways, 5140 top RPM. The speeds, feeds, WOC, DOC below are best results we saw after many test (your opinion is welcome). The part is 6061-T6 AL spiral rough and finished with a ZRN coated .5" 2 FL 37° helix SQ EM. Leaving .02" for the finishing cut ran at

2500 RPM
25 IPM
.4" DOC
.02 WOC"
Flood coolant
Climb cut

2500%2520at%252025.jpg



Few more random parts

Side%2520wall%2520chatter.jpg


Tormach%2520Finish%25201%2520%2528close%2520up%2529.jpg





carbide .5" 3 FL at
2500 RPM
25 IPM
.6" DOC
.01 WOC"
Flood coolant
Climb cut

_MG_8328.JPG






If any of you that own a Super Mini or VF2 and have a few high quality pics to compare that would be awesome !





If we throw the parts off the table into the tumblers, the finish it produces after being anodized is a muddy cloudy black. The tumblers have a flow through system and change the water/soap mix every 12 hours. We tumbler the parts for deburring only and belt/hand sand (along with a bunch of other stuff) to get the finish you see below. We've talked with other part makers in the industry telling them our process and were blown away at the time it takes. With other VF2 owners they simply throw the parts off the table in the tumbler and the finish they're getting is very close to ours without any extra work. So my guess is the finish our machine is leaving us to start from.


CINEIK%2520Whole%2520System%2520Red%2520Rails%2520%2528Logo%25201000%2529.jpg
 
You're at .0034" IPT, which is too much for fine finishes. At your current RPM, I would be at 15 IPM. 18 IPM if the finish isn't super important, but still lots better than what you are showing. Another thing that will help you out is to leave .005" for the finish pass. Chip thinning is a wonderful thing.

You said you did lots of testing, but that RPM is mighty slow! I run 12,000 RPM in aluminum with cutters 1" and smaller.
 
Hi Matt,
For some reason with my machine when I run at max RPM, the finish is worse (I know that sounds crazy). A few others with the same machine have properly balanced the motor fan and cast pulleys to achieve max rpm finishing. At the end mill manufacture S&F suggestions, very bad finish. I'll try a little less on my finishing pass again, but if I remember correctly it wanted more meat for a better finish. However I'm still in the need for a higher volume machine and if anyone has a few finish pictures please let me know.
 
Tell Haas you want to see some test cuts. If they want to sell a machine, they will be happy to do that.

Try a 4 flute end mill for finishing.
 
Bring a good tool rep into the picture and get them to provide you with cutters and starting feeds and speed for the machine you're looking at buying. Gühring makes some excellent cutters for alu.
 
To me, "stepper driven" says it all. Well, most of it anyway. One of your pics also shown what looks to be looseness in the head. If you are looking at a new VF2 you'll be tickled to the point of near orgasm. I've never used a haas, but anything put together better, servo driven, and tight smooth spindle bearings will be a big improvement.

Next I'd suggest leaving about .005-.010" for finish pass and feed at .002" per flute or less. And using a good coolant made for aluminum. I'm not sure how you are getting a cloudy anodize finish unless you are getting corrosion before anodize. But, then again, can't say I have much experience having things anodized. check also into your tumbling wash and make sure there is no ammonia in anything to contact the alum.
 
My opinion is that if your current machine wants low RPM and lots of material left to make its best finish, then there's no hope for it getting any better with any tool or any other parameters. In other words, it's junk. :)

Here's a couple pictures of a side wall finish in 304 off of my '07 VF-2ss. Finishes in 6061 are comparable if not better. For what you're doing, any full size, good condition VMC is going to knock your socks off compared to what you have now.
 

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Before you buy another mill, I would take a serious look at your tool holders condition. I noticed that you had your endmill in a ER collet setup. My guess is your tool is running out better than .001". If that is the case, thats why your finishes get worse at a higher RPM. You can ruff mill with that tooling setup, but if you want superior finishes you better look at a good shrink fit or hydraulic holder setup.
Next I would look at your spindle belts. Are they loose or are they whipping at certain rpms?
If not either of those, sometimes you need to have your voltage balaced at the machine. Voltage changes at diferent times of every day and can play hell with spindle drives.

Good luck!
 
Shrinkers on what sounds like a bench top mill?? Common man. The pictures I posted were done with tools in an ER collet. I guess I did it wrong.
 
Shrinkers on what sounds like a bench top mill?? Common man. The pictures I posted were done with tools in an ER collet. I guess I did it wrong.

That will teach me to actually read the text! I looked at the pictures and the title, made a few assumptions and.......yeah. BUY A NEW MACHINE MAN!!!!! ;D forget everything I wrote....
 
I run an '07 vf-2 nearly every day, in a lot of aluminum. I've got a lot of pictures of my parts, but none that I think show finish very well.

We always run the same type of end mill you show, only the 3 flute version. I usually run 7300 RPM at 60 to 65 IPM, I've found any faster than that I'll start getting the little lines similar to what you have, just not near as ugly.

Here are a few parts that you can kind of see the finish. None are very close up, but you can get an idea. The small part was done with a 1/4" 3 flute Zrn coated 7300 RPM and 40 IPM.

2012-06-04153238.jpg


2012-09-05131839.jpg


2012-10-05093303.jpg


Hope this helps.

Josh
 
Starting from the top.. :)


"Tell Haas you want to see some test cuts. If they want to sell a machine, they will be happy to do that.

Try a 4 flute end mill for finishing."




I thought so too, but guess not. They told me I'd be better off finding a local shop with a VF2 to see the finish... I've tried a 4 FL with the same results and is why I too believe it has something to do with the motors being steppers.




Kevin - I own a few taps from Gühring I think, but never tried their EMs.






"To me, "stepper driven" says it all. Well, most of it anyway. One of your pics also shown what looks to be looseness in the head. If you are looking at a new VF2 you'll be tickled to the point of near orgasm. I've never used a haas, but anything put together better, servo driven, and tight smooth spindle bearings will be a big improvement.

Next I'd suggest leaving about .005-.010" for finish pass and feed at .002" per flute or less. And using a good coolant made for aluminum. I'm not sure how you are getting a cloudy anodize finish unless you are getting corrosion before anodize. But, then again, can't say I have much experience having things anodized. check also into your tumbling wash and make sure there is no ammonia in anything to contact the alum."



You nailed it. I tightened up my Z gib after these pics were taken to remove that frequency pattern in the finish you see (good eye). These photos are taken with a 10x precision optics achromatic lens which makes the lines look pretty bad. I can run my finger nail across the surface and feel very tiny little ridges. I'm going to try for a smaller WOC for the finish, but I remember I got better results with more meat on the bone for some reason. The coolant I'm using is called Hangsterfer’s S-777 and was told is amazing for aluminum. My guess is the cloudy finish is from having to leave the parts in longer to bring them to a smooth surface. I'm using a flow through 5 micron filter, distilled water and dawn soap.







"My opinion is that if your current machine wants low RPM and lots of material left to make its best finish, then there's no hope for it getting any better with any tool or any other parameters. In other words, it's junk.

Here's a couple pictures of a side wall finish in 304 off of my '07 VF-2ss. Finishes in 6061 are comparable if not better. For what you're doing, any full size, good condition VMC is going to knock your socks off compared to what you have now."




Great looking parts and thank you for uploading them !







"Before you buy another mill, I would take a serious look at your tool holders condition. I noticed that you had your endmill in a ER collet setup. My guess is your tool is running out better than .001". If that is the case, thats why your finishes get worse at a higher RPM. You can ruff mill with that tooling setup, but if you want superior finishes you better look at a good shrink fit or hydraulic holder setup.
Next I would look at your spindle belts. Are they loose or are they whipping at certain rpms?
If not either of those, sometimes you need to have your voltage balaced at the machine. Voltage changes at diferent times of every day and can play hell with spindle drives.

Good luck!"




RO on all ER20 holders are .0002" - .0003", I know I thought so too. Hmmm now the voltage thing I didn't know, how can I test this ?







"I run an '07 vf-2 nearly every day, in a lot of aluminum. I've got a lot of pictures of my parts, but none that I think show finish very well.

We always run the same type of end mill you show, only the 3 flute version. I usually run 7300 RPM at 60 to 65 IPM, I've found any faster than that I'll start getting the little lines similar to what you have, just not near as ugly.

Here are a few parts that you can kind of see the finish. None are very close up, but you can get an idea. The small part was done with a 1/4" 3 flute Zrn coated 7300 RPM and 40 IPM."




Thank you for the pics, they help but I guess not everyone like me stares through a 10x microscope :)
 
Thank you for the pics, they help but I guess not everyone like me stares through a 10x microscope :)
I look at almost everything I make with a 10x eye loupe, but it's tough taking pictures through one. Trust me, if you get a VF-2 sized machine, you'll never look back.
 
It does not need to be a VF-2 for test cut...find anyone with a VF-1/2/3/4 and have them cut you a part.
Can't see why your HFO won't do it...but they should be able to supply you with a few shops that have their equipment. My HFO has both requested to bring someone in here to show them my Haas running and lined up a place I can see a machine I was interested in running.
Stepper to servo is a big difference.
 
I was looking at your site and the types of products you are currently making and was wondering if you currently making all of the milled parts on the mill you have now? If so I am sure you will be very happy with the Haas for your type of work. Camera Baseplates and Rigs is a tough market you are getting into with a ton of competition from China and India in the lower cost arena. Best wishes.
 
I'm looking into having a test part cut this week. Honestly all I need is a finishing pass on 6061, CC, 1" DOC, .008" WOC (at 10x mag), just to get an idea of the difference (which I'm sure is night and day). I probably wouldn't be so picky if I wasn't finishing them and selling as is. Turns out my motors fan is warped and a big cause to the issues. I measured my machine with a seismometer, fan on / off and saw a 40% difference in the finish. Problem is I can't run my machine without the fan due to heat, so looks like I'll have to try and static balance it for now.


Techguy - I couldn't agree more. I've been designing camera equipment for 10 years and only put out my best even if it takes 6 hours more of finishing time. Yes, everything you see I make. Do you make camera EQ too ?




All I need to figure out now is how long shipping, setup, learning curve (I'm use to using mach 3) will take.
 








 
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