Haas TM2P: 2 pulleys = $6,700

PriddyShiddy · Jun 1, 2016

I have a 2 year old TM2P with less than 1,600 hours on it. The last 2 months I have been running SMALL tools so the spindle has been on 6K rpm for 8-12 hours a day 6 days a week. I go to run some normal parts and finish is BAD all the way around the part and from facing.

HFO comes out today and tests the drawbar which was fine then we pull the timing belt off and find a nice deep groove in both pulleys and the belt nice and furry. Seems like a logical possibility of a cause so I say "Okay, order me up the pulleys and a new belt".

Quote: $6,700 (including labor)

WTF!?

"We can't change the pulleys, you have to buy new spindle AND new motor". He explains as if it wasn't the dumbest thing I have heard in years. He said they heat & press the pulleys on so there is no way to get them off without damaging the spindle and/or the motor in the process.

I am beside myself at the complete insanity of this. I have worked on CNCs and many other machines and I have never heard of permanently mounting a WEAR ITEM to a spindle/pulley. Not to mention: how the hell did a rubber timing belt wear out 2 steel pulleys in less than 1,600 hours?! That's less than 2hr/day of use since I bought this thing new.

Did they install it WAY to tight?
Is it because they have a 21mm belt on 40mm pulleys?
Why is there a 21mm belt on a pulley twice it's size??

He sold me a new belt to try and it is completely different brand. Old one is a Mitsubishi Giga Torque GX and the new one is Gates Poly Chain GT still 21mm.

Should I try a 30mm on this 40mm set up instead to get it up over the wear marks?

Phone just died, but I will post pic of the strange finish in a few minutes. I am stumped. Going to finish cleaning the masses of goo and crap that the fan sucks up from the open column and deposited on everything in the spindle cabinet, get the new belt on and take some test cuts. I wondering if the coolant that gets sucked up acted as a lapping compound and increased the wear on the pulleys maybe.

timmydabull · Jun 1, 2016

PriddyShiddy said:
I have a 2 year old TM2P with less than 1,600 hours on it. The last 2 months I have been running SMALL tools so the spindle has been on 6K rpm for 8-12 hours a day 6 days a week. I go to run some normal parts and finish is BAD all the way around the part and from facing.

HFO comes out today and tests the drawbar which was fine then we pull the timing belt off and find a nice deep groove in both pulleys and the belt nice and furry. Seems like a logical possibility of a cause so I say "Okay, order me up the pulleys and a new belt".

Quote: $6,700 (including labor)

WTF!?

"We can't change the pulleys, you have to buy new spindle AND new motor". He explains as if it wasn't the dumbest thing I have heard in years. He said they heat & press the pulleys on so there is no way to get them off without damaging the spindle and/or the motor in the process.

I am beside myself at the complete insanity of this. I have worked on CNCs and many other machines and I have never heard of permanently mounting a WEAR ITEM to a spindle/pulley. Not to mention: how the hell did a rubber timing belt wear out 2 steel pulleys in less than 1,600 hours?! That's less than 2hr/day of use since I bought this thing new.

Did they install it WAY to tight?
Is it because they have a 21mm belt on 40mm pulleys?
Why is there a 21mm belt on a pulley twice it's size??

He sold me a new belt to try and it is completely different brand. Old one is a Mitsubishi Giga Torque GX and the new one is Gates Poly Chain GT still 21mm.

Should I try a 30mm on this 40mm set up instead to get it up over the wear marks?

View attachment 172841

Phone just died, but I will post pic of the strange finish in a few minutes. I am stumped. Going to finish cleaning the masses of goo and crap that the fan sucks up from the open column and deposited on everything in the spindle cabinet, get the new belt on and take some test cuts. I wondering if the coolant that gets sucked up acted as a lapping compound and increased the wear on the pulleys maybe.

my 07 machine uses a gates 20mm 8 pitch belt or maybe 8mm 20 pitch cant remember at the moment, im not sire if there were one or 2 belts on there but ive replaced them twice,20,000 hours and no marks on the pulley like yours.

i had a close problem like yours at one time and i honed the taper of the spindle and it mysteriously dissapeared

PriddyShiddy · Jun 1, 2016

Here's pics of the finish

Stirling · Jun 1, 2016

if it can be installed it can be removed.
Access may be tricky. But totally doable if your knowledgable.

And as far as your fan sucking up all that gunk, just take it off and flip it around.
Make it blow down.
I machine cast iron dry often and I did this to prevent sucking up the dust over the z ball screw

If you really wanted you would add an air hose to the head, make it blow a little in be head when using it to create a positive air environment.
I would hate all that crap piling up!

PriddyShiddy · Jun 1, 2016

New belt installed and let it break in for 30 minutes... Absolutely no change in finish even though it is riding the bottom of the pulleys instead of the top now.

Any ideas? Bad bearings? Hate to just throw $3K at a problem if the tech is just guessing

mtlwiz · Jun 1, 2016

Stirling said:
if it can be installed it can be removed.
Access may be tricky. But totally doable if your knowledgable.

And as far as your fan sucking up all that gunk, just take it off and flip it around.
Make it blow down.
I machine cast iron dry often and I did this to prevent sucking up the dust over the z ball screw

If you really wanted you would add an air hose to the head, make it blow a little in be head when using it to create a positive air environment.
I would hate all that crap piling up!

actually just replaced a spindle in a 2014 tmp2 2 wks ago, when it was out i looked at exactly what your describing, spindle is a sealed unit and to heat that pulley up enough to get it off is probably going to harm the seal or the bearing. it is a very close clearance area.

PriddyShiddy · Jun 1, 2016

mtlwiz said:
actually just replaced a spindle in a 2014 tmp2 2 wks ago, when it was out i looked at exactly what your describing, spindle is a sealed unit and to heat that pulley up enough to get it off is probably going to harm the seal or the bearing. it is a very close clearance area.

What was the cause of your replacement? I kind of feel like I made a BAD investment on this machine having to replace the spindle at 1,600 hours. My Tormach had that many hours on the spindle and had minimal decrease in its "best" finish. Mind you it's best wasn't anywhere near the TM was but wow.

Machine did crash itself with the JogAway/AutoCrash feature. Apparently if you DON'T jog in Z it does an XY move then crashes Z. Crash was a few weeks ago during the small tool marathon and the tooling is so small (.005" diamter tip engravers doing 3D embossed parts less than .2" x .2" x .02" that take 10+ minutes to cut. Maybe that ruined the bearings???

mkd · Jun 1, 2016

occurs to me that if the bearings were good, it wouldn't allow pulley weirdness to get transmitted to part surface finish.

your bearings are shot, IMO.

Milland · Jun 1, 2016

Take the belt off again, and using a screwdriver or proper mechanics stethoscope rotate the spindle while listening for "bearing death sounds" at the spindle housing nose. It would be pretty pathetic if just 6K was enough to do them in, but given Haas sells to a price point it could just be the case.

Hell, if you do a lot of 3D surfacing and you want to get goofy, see if you can retrofit a higher speed spindle to this machine.

On the crap finish, did you try a couple different cutters and S/F tests?

PriddyShiddy · Jun 1, 2016

Milland said:
Take the belt off again, and using a screwdriver or proper mechanics stethoscope rotate the spindle while listening for "bearing death sounds" at the spindle housing nose. It would be pretty pathetic if just 6K was enough to do them in, but given Haas sells to a price point it could just be the case.

Hell, if you do a lot of 3D surfacing and you want to get goofy, see if you can retrofit a higher speed spindle to this machine.

On the crap finish, did you try a couple different cutters and S/F tests?

I finally got it back together for the third time today... I'll listen after I run the next three week production job. Finish doesn't matter one lick on these parts and I am back ordered already. 4,000 parts in three weeks takes me 18 hours a day 6-7 days a week. That should let the bearings settle in nicely.

Yes, I did test multiple cutters and speeds from 15ipm to 100 and 2000 rpm to 6000. Definitely slight improvement going slower but it's still crazy obvious.

I have been toying with that idea of a different spindle though I wouldn't do it to this machine. Sadly I am actually planning on picking up a ProtoTrak 2Op in a couple months to run the parts I just ran. Seems nutter, but their lease is bitchin and $100/month extends the warranty 4 years. I can burn up a few spindles in that time at 6K rpm and be shoveling money. Those parts are TINY and after 4 months of searching there is no machine that makes sense for them sadly. 2Op has a slow spindle for the tools, but takes 10sq/ft. Total. Haas takes up A LOT AND needs to be 3ft from the wall. I can fit 3 2Ops in the wasted space behind the Haas alone and move them when I need to get into the Haas cabinet (in theory). 3 6K spindles are a LOT faster than 1 15K spindle. I plan on getting several of them and once a lease is up I've thought about setting each one up for a different tool with a high speed spindle then transferring fixtures from machine to machine instead of tool changing. Who knows.

mkd said:
occurs to me that if the bearings were good, it wouldn't allow pulley weirdness to get transmitted to part surface finish.

your bearings are shot, IMO.

Well... that makes sense. Logic doesn't always prevail, but it sure would seem logical.

That makes me think maybe the bearings were destroyed by the JogAwayThenCrashIntoPart feature and perhaps running it at full speed for another 100 hours CAUSED the damage to the pulleys.

mkd · Jun 1, 2016

Haas can be placed closer, but the cabinet door need to be taken off instead of opened. :-)

one bad thing about a lease is that's how they report you to the county Tax collector.
Used= no report

PriddyShiddy · Jun 1, 2016

The whole pulley/belt size thing is still bugging the heck out of me. Do you think they put the 20mm on because it is cheaper and exceeds the requirements and that was the only stock size pulley they could get? It's unreal. I have designed a lot of pulley systems and never would have thought it acceptable to make one with so much slop.

When I throw the new spindle on it'll be interesting to see if the groove on the back pulley trashes the belt.

PriddyShiddy · Jun 1, 2016

mkd said:
Haas can be placed closer, but the cabinet door need to be taken off instead of opened. :-)

one bad thing about a lease is that's how they report you to the county Tax collector.
Used= no report

S M R T

"Increased air circulation measure" just don't mind the zappy zappy parts inspector

I picked up a 22 year old Miyano 5 axis lathe in December.... less backlash than my 2 year old Haas. LOL That machine is damn fun to play with. Programming... not so much. They didn't opt for the correct control so the tail turret and milling is done with PITA M-Codes. Does what I bought it for and keeps a couple tenths all day long as I adjust every few hours for temperature and wear. Wish I was a lathe shop. SO much easier to program a 20 year old lathe by hand than CAD/CAM on mill parts that never seem to need less than 3 set ups.

mkd · Jun 1, 2016

door off *during service***

my 16 YO 5axis lathe is a pain in the butt to program CAD/CAM.
--post rev 25. :angry:

converterking · Jun 1, 2016

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...998-brother-tc-22a-cnc-tapping-center-316962/

Problem solved.

PriddyShiddy · Jun 1, 2016

converterking said:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...998-brother-tc-22a-cnc-tapping-center-316962/

Problem solved.

Been looking at every brother to pop up on ebay since January or so. Definitely CLOSE to perfect except space. HP is overkill, TC is overkill, rapids etc are all useless for these parts. 98% tool in cut and I can fit 2 days worth of parts in a kurt vise space. Basically a couple years from now I plan to need 4 or 5 spindles running the same/similar parts and don't want to move to a bigger shop to do it. At $750/month on the $32K 2op I can fit 4 of them where that brother sits and run all day long with warranty. It's a debate I keep going back and forth on but $18K + $1500 shipping on that 12K RPM bother is a hell of an argument for moving things around a little.

ewlsey · Jun 1, 2016

I had a VF3 that had two timing belts side by side on the same pulley. It was designed that way. I don't know why your belt is so much more narrow than the pulley, but I see no harm in putting on a wider belt if it satisfies you.

Please post your end mill info, tool stick out, and feeds and speeds. I don't buy this on a 2 year old machine with 1600 hours.

PriddyShiddy · Jun 1, 2016

If I convince you to buy it do you pay for the spindle

I am thinking the crash destroyed the bearings and the vibration caused the pulley damage but 10 hours ago I was sure it was the belt that caused it so who knows.

Finishing speeds on that cut are normally 6K RPM 50IPM Dataflute ARF20500 bright standard 1.25 length 1.82" stick out. Same set up I have ran on a few hundred of those parts. Three different cutters tested plus facemill all at known speeds with known tools. There is a vibration and significant damage to the steel pulleys not broken tools and "poor finish". The facemill is leaving pits/smears across the surface of a 2" thick block same as it would on a .25" thick bar poorly supported that sings with vibration. There is definitely something 'wrong'.

ewlsey · Jun 1, 2016

You never mentioned a crash. That changes everything.

PriddyShiddy · Jun 1, 2016

Now that I take the picture I remembered it was more than three tools. The parts I already gave to the customer used 1/2, 3/8, facemill, chamfer mill ALL showed vibration. That same chamfer mill 4 flute Dataflute 6Krpm 30ipm is usually smooth, facemill same speed has no pits, both sides of parts in different vises the same.

Haas TM2P: 2 pulleys = $6,700

Cast Iron

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