Haas VS Hardinge Rotary

Chris59 · Mar 17, 2009

We are looking for a rotary for our Haas VF-2ss. We have quotes from Haas and Hardinge.
They are both full 4th axis 5C rotaries. Both will plug into our 4th axis port on the Haas (we have a 5th axis there as well). Both quotes are basically equal in price. Haas is made in USA, I don't know about the Hardinge (assume China?).
What do you guys recommend? Is the Haas close in quality to the Hardinge?
I know I'm asking on a Haas forum but there are many out there who have used both (I haven't).
Thanks

SeymourDumore · Mar 17, 2009

Chris

I have a Haas, and though it isn't used daily by any means, It is definiately trouble free and accurate. I cut SS and TI on it mostly, sometimes hangs out by 6" or more from center, never any positioning problems.
The Hardinges I've seen are also very nicely built (where, I don't know) and I think they offer faster rotational speeds. I would guess the accuracy is there as well.
I also have the Haas 5C, which is used very frequently, sometimes seemingly way beyond it's intended limits. No problem there either, and that's the one usually called upon to do full 4th work to relatively tight tolerances.

If it was me, I'd go for the Haas since it's going on a Haas.
If however you do choose the Hardinge, I would get it in writing, signed, stamped that IT WILL IN FACT WORK as a full 4th axis on your machine. If it does not, make sure it is Hardinge's responsibility to make it work or take it back.

Chris59 · Mar 17, 2009

Thanks for the response SeymourDumore.
I found out that the Hardinge is also made in USA (a big concern to me but not as much to my employers- it being their money after all).
The Hardinge quote states: "Machine must be equipped with 4th axis drive and interface."

Also the salesman said that if we had a 4th axis plugged into it before (we did), then it will plug in and work too.
The Haas has a 6-8 week lead time, the Hardinge has a 2 day lead time.
Shipping seemed excessive on the Haas unit as well, Hardinge will ship it on our FedEX, so it is what it is.
Leaning toward Hardinge.

Rustydog · Mar 17, 2009

I'd lean toward the HAAS in this case, even with the lead time. Technical support could be questionable with the two different MFG's involved. I'll go out on a limb and say that when/if technical issues come up Hardinge will say call HAAS and HAAS will say call Hardinge. I'd guess that your local HFO would rent you a unit to use till your new one arrives.
Just my $0.02.

tc1999 · Mar 17, 2009

Sounds a little like Hardinge is beating Haas at their own game...

Keep us posted on what you get.

I have used the Haas rotary tables extensively, but NEVER the Hardinge. Only know enough about the Hardinge to "think" it is an exact copy of the Haas. Even to a Haas guy like me, it seems funny that someone like Hardinge would copy a Haas, but they (haas 4th's) are decent tables at a decent price.

The 5C's have very little power, so you have to watch the material removal rate closely.

It does seem that companies like Hardinge are operating off of their name only now.

Chris59 · Mar 17, 2009

I think they put in a PO for the Hardinge (not being in the loop, I'm not sure).
I'll keep everyone up to date with what I find. Someone's bound to find himself in a similar situation.
I personally was leaning toward the Haas because of it being made in USA and the certainty of it being able to be hooked up to our VF-2ss.
The Hardinge is made in USA and they have assured us that it will be a plug in and go unit.
So my main arguments were satisfied.
Well, I hope it works out (since I'm going to use it on "my" machine).

SeymourDumore · Mar 17, 2009

Chris59 said:
The Hardinge quote states: "Machine must be equipped with 4th axis drive and interface."

The Haas has a 6-8 week lead time, the Hardinge has a 2 day lead time.

On the first part, I'd prefer it to read like this:

Sales BS starting:

"""

The Hardinge Model# ( Insert your model# here) WILL function as a 4th axis indexing AND as a 4th axis interpolating device on you Haas VF-2SS, serial# (insert your ser# here), provided the optional Haas 4th axis drive ( Insert Haas part# here) is properly installed and verified by a qualified Haas service personnel.
It will be programmable as an additional ( this case A axis) from within the body of your main program. All feed and speed functions will be controlled and monitored by the Haas motion control system exclusively without the addition of any external control system and without the useage of the Haas serial port.

""""

End Sales BS.

As far as the 6-8 week leadtime, either your Haas HFO is a basement operation, or someone is blowing smoke up someone else's rear and.
I believe my HFO usually keeps 4-5 5C indexers and at least 2 of each common rotaries on stock, ready for same afternoon delivery.
In addition they can always pull stock from another HFO to be ready by next day.

I also agree with the comment of sticking with the same vendor to avoid finger pointing. Last thing you want is Haas blowing the motor on the Hardinge or the Hardinge smoking up your MOCON board, which will result in you holding 2 bags at once.

Chris59 · Mar 17, 2009

I'd agree with most of that but probably not to the extent you state. I'd like (prefer) them to be the same manufacturer for the reasons you said, however, you see third party stuff on machines all the time.
That was a great idea about the sales PO reading more clearly (boy did you ever lock it down). Unfortunately, it's out of my hands and already sent.
It boiled down to price and availabilty. Haas has a great reputation for their rotary products.
And so does Hardinge. Both being US made. The machine compatibility issue was satisfied so far. If it fails, we'll revisit it here. I'll be bringing everybody up to speed.

Ox · Mar 17, 2009

I had a Haas 5C unit 15+ yrs ago. (black if that tells you enything) It was fine for what it was intended for. I did not like the fact that it was a stepper instead of a servo and it didn't know if it got stuck or not. But it only got stuck when running big fixtures that should'a been on a bigger unit in the first place. :nutter:

I replaced it with a small Haas table and life was good.

Got a big job with short delivery time which needed at least two machines with 4ths running. Used Haas units were not available at the time and Haas was out on delivery for some time. Hardinge was just offering their new 16C unit and could deliver much quicker. So I bought one.

The Hardinge unit that I have is VERY HD! When my job was done - I tried to sell one of them. Someone on this site wanted the Haas - so that's what I sold. Both of which were 1/2 axis units actually... I don't have the 5C - but I would bet the Hardinge is a better built unit. But either would be fine I am sure.

I also have two (and had a third) Troyke tables and feel that they doo a dandy job as well.

I would not expect eny trouble from eny of them for many yrs...

Go with whoever can git you going within a reasonable timeframe. you can lose more in the 6 weeks than the cost of the table...

(Yes - I understand that you already have one ordered - just reassuring...)

----------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Chris59 · Mar 18, 2009

Thanks Ox.

I'm thinking snow but it's only raining here this morning. Of course if it starts snowing here in Jupiter Florida, we have other problems.

Chris59 · Apr 28, 2009

Just an update:
We got the Hardinge rotary. Works great! Great customer service! They kept in contact and made sure we got it up and going. Good deal.
Thanks to all who responded.

Haas_Apps · Apr 28, 2009

Deciding Factor

Chris59 said:
Just an update:
We got the Hardinge rotary. Works great! Great customer service! They kept in contact and made sure we got it up and going. Good deal.
Thanks to all who responded.

Just curious, what was the deciding factors?

Chris59 · Apr 28, 2009

We liked some of the Hardinge features better (hardened bearing, etc...) and the Hardinge customer service was excellent.

Haas_Apps · Apr 28, 2009

Chris59,
I don't get it. That Hardinge 5C is a copy of the Haas 5C - in every detail, including bearings. So this leads me to believe that the Hardinge sales pitch was better than the Haas sales pitch.
I am not familiar with Hardinge customer service, but I am familiar with Haas customer service and I know that the Haas service is top notch. If you do not get outstanding customer service please let me know at [email protected]

kustomizer · Apr 28, 2009

Haas_Apps said:
I am not familiar with Hardinge customer service, but I am familiar with Haas customer service and I know that the Haas service is top notch. If you do not get outstanding customer service please let me know at [email protected]

I have to agree the Haas customer service is first rate as long as you can work with the folks at the factory, I am not nearly as impressed with my dealer, I still have unresolved issues with my last two machines and of course the warranty is gone but the problems are still there. Last time they were here they were sent by the factory but I ended up with an almost $800.00 bill from the dealer for travel.

Chris59 · Apr 29, 2009

Haas_Apps said:
Chris59,
I don't get it. That Hardinge 5C is a copy of the Haas 5C - in every detail, including bearings. So this leads me to believe that the Hardinge sales pitch was better than the Haas sales pitch.
I am not familiar with Hardinge customer service, but I am familiar with Haas customer service and I know that the Haas service is top notch. If you do not get outstanding customer service please let me know at [email protected]

Well, you're partially right. I said bearings when I should have said worm gear. The Haas has an "aluminum-bronze worm gear" (from the Haas brochure) and the Hardinge has an "hardened and ground steel" one (from the Hardinge brochure). I can't find proof about the bearings but he did say that they were different too. But as I say I can't find proof so I stand corrected.
The customer service comment I will stand by. I don't want to get into a he said she said match. Hardinge customer service was outstanding. Lets leave it at that.

I am still a fan of Haas and GREATLY appreciate the fact that they are made in USA. The Hardinge ROTARY is still made in USA so it was in the running. The prices were comparable. I'd like to leave it there.

tc1999 · Apr 29, 2009

Glad to hear you are up and running - and HAPPY!

Like I said...Hardinge beat Haas at its own game (at least this time).

Is the torque the same on both?

Chris59 · Apr 29, 2009

No. Torque on Haas 60ft-lbs, Hardinge 82ft-lbs.

Chris59 · Apr 29, 2009

Actually, this opened up a can of worms (gear if you will). The accuracy of brochures is questionable and always has been.

The hardinge brochure said the worm gear was "hardened and ground steel cross-axis helical gear for more accuracy...". The Worm gear drive shaft was also "hardened and ground".
However, my Hardinge manual says the worm gear is "aluminium bronze".

Another thing: Hardinge manual says 82ft-lbs torque. But we have a Hardinge unit with a Haas control motor. So wouldn't the torques be the same?

Regardless, we are happy with our unit and didn't purchase it on sales pitch. Customer service, price, and delivery (in that order) were the deceiding factors.

If someone can explain the brochure discrepancies, it would satisfy my curiosity.

Haas_Apps · Apr 29, 2009

I did not want to open a can of worms, and only brought this up because I have looked internally at both of them (opened 'em up). The hardinge is a copy down to every hole. I even noticed one hole that when I called Hardinge to ask what it was for they did not know. Haas did.

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