Need advice on Haas vf1 vs haas tm2

kpotter · Feb 19, 2018

I have never run a cnc mill but I have reached the point where I pretty much have to do something. I am looking at buying a haas. The shop down the street has a 2017 TM2p they paid 60 grand for it. They are willing to sell it to me for 25 grand cash. My question is this, should I by a vf1 and pay 50 grand for it new or would this machine be fine. I am not a job shop we manufucture our own products. I am planning to have someone program and do set up for us and we will operate it. We cut both steel and aluminum parts. Speed is not a concern, we run all manual machines currently so this will be crazy fast even at a fraction of the speed.

Garwood · Feb 20, 2018

Who are you going to have program and fix it?

I ask because I do programming and setup for other shops and they are kind of captive to what I am familiar with.

I looked at the specs on a new TM2-P. $35,000 brand new base and weighs 5200 lbs with 40x16 travels and 6000 RPM.

That's atleast 2 tons of iron shy of doing any kind of real work.

$25k will buy you a really nice used machine.

$10k cash will buy you way more than what you need and way better than Haas.

kpotter · Feb 20, 2018

The only reason I am choosing haas is because everyone I know can run them, they are in every shop I see. The tm2 is used it was bought at the beggining of 2017. The vf1 would be purchased new. The reason I am looking at new is because all the used machines I look at are almost the same price as new. I was at an auction last week and watched several haas mills that were almost 20 years old sell for 75% of new plus a 20 percent buyers premium. Thats nuts. might as well buy a new one.

riabma77 · Feb 20, 2018

TMs are not very rigid. If you are cutting steel, you may get better results with the VF1.

Milland · Feb 20, 2018

And since we're happy to spend your money, get a Vf-2 instead of the smaller machine. You always (and I mean always) want more travel than you originally think.

ewlsey · Feb 20, 2018

Milland said:
You always (and I mean always) want more travel than you originally think.

Doesn't the TM-2 have more travel?

SIM · Feb 20, 2018

I'd go for the VF over the TM.

Aside from the TM having more X travel I see no other benefit of a TM...aside from price.

VF has 20 tool Carousel
VF lots more torque, higher spindle speed and faster rapids

The TM will get your jobs done...but as your looking to push out more work...go CNC and not Toolroom Mill.

No Haas bashing from me, I have a bunch of them...but they are light duty machines and TM is even lighter duty.

You said speed is not a concern...that is till you see how much more quality work can be produced on a CNC compared to cranking handles. Soon you'll find you can do a months work in a couple hours and be looking for more work and then speed becomes a concern.

My .02..Haas is good bang for the buck till you start adding options... Stick to what you need, like an auger..

Good luck.

AARONT · Feb 20, 2018

I'm in the VF crowd. The extra cash will be worth it with the speed. I would also talk to them and see if they would be willing to do turn key on one of your harder parts. This would save you a little time and cash, and if they screw up it's on their dime not yours.

kpotter · Feb 20, 2018

The Tm2 is 25 thousand dollars it is about 8 months old. I looked at it today, it has rigid tapping, chip auger, 4th axis, programable coolant and some other stuff. They are buying something more rigid. How much is a vf 1, I think if I buy a new one I will need to finance it. IS the vf worth 40 grand more? I am open to suggestions.

kpotter · Feb 20, 2018

The vf1 is smaller than the tm2 it is 44 thousand bare bones. It may be the better choice, space is a big problem I got very little. It comes with more standard features, Does anyone have one and do the they like it.

cnctoolcat · Feb 20, 2018

Definitely go for a new VF!

Haas offers easy, competitive financing with just good credit and a signature.

Any bean counter would tell you a profitable, ongoing business should generally conserve cash and finance capital equipment, primarily for the tax write offs .

ewlsey · Feb 20, 2018

I'm not super familiar with the TM machines, but I believe some of them use steel weldment bases like the mini mills. They cut a lot of corners to keep costs down. No way covers on Y and Z. Cheesy enclosures. Limited tool changer options. Low RPM spindles.

The VF machines are the bread and butter production machines.

I'd pay twice as much for a VF over a TM. No question.

Milland · Feb 20, 2018

VF-1: VF-1
$44,650 - 20" x 16" x 20" XYZ travels

VF-2: VF-2
$47,500 - 30" x 16" x 20" XYZ travels

Under $3K gets you 50% more capacity. The -2 takes no room than the -1 (they use the same sheetmetal outer housings), you can find the size, electrical, and more specs here: https://int.haascnc.com/doclib/manual/es0332.pdf

Note to Haas - make this PDF more prominent, or list the actual machine sizes along with each one's descriptions! Whoever decided to make this info harder to find should be made ambassador to North Korea.

My objections to the TM-1 are the same as the others - too light, too cramped, too slow, to limited, etc. There's a reason that your fellow shop is selling theirs at a steep discount. It has it's place, and if you had the bucks to get both it's not a bad second-op machine, but if you have the choice of only one, get the VF. You will thank us. Really. And get a -2, you'll thank us again...

Stirling · Feb 20, 2018

I've got a tm-1 and a tl-1 lathe.
Are they great machines? Heck no, did they give me the confidence in sales to show I could support a bigger payment. Absolutely!

What I'm saying is cash flow is king and sometimes its best to start small, recognizing you can always sell small and get bigger in 6 months when you see how much more your selling due to the new machine and how much you will appreciate bigger!!

Ive owned my tl lathe for just over 6 months. Zero work to dear god I need a slant bed. It's proved my sales. Cheap to get me in the market.
This tm your looking at may just be that opening for you.

But trust me, in 6 months you'll wish you had the vf2 if you sell your services well.

As far as "how does it preform?"
They are not very ridged, not much power, but get piles of work done vs turning handles. Small cutters. Fast rpm deep cut small step overs. Single phase or 3 phase power and can be moved with a pallet jack. Low electrical requirements.

SIM · Feb 21, 2018

kpotter said:
The Tm2 is 25 thousand dollars it is about 8 months old. I looked at it today, it has rigid tapping, chip auger, 4th axis, programable coolant and some other stuff. They are buying something more rigid.

I think you should read the above statement again...kinda answers your question.

It took that company 8 months to realize you can dress a Bridgeport like Toolroom Mill up like a full blown CNC, but in the end it is still a light duty Toolroom Mill.

Only saving grace is they took the major 35k hit.

I have the smaller 7.5hp motor in my Mini-Mill. I bought for small parts and 2nd ops, its great...but forget roughing, drilling and tapping above 1/2" or so...just no balls.

I have VF-1's and a VF-2...the larger X is nice...but 95% of my work fits well within the VF-1 range. Nice to have the xtra X of the VF-2. YOu know your work...see what you need.

Also...if you put 15K as a down payment, keep 5 for tooling and hold onto a few K in case...the monthly payment is usually only a job or two. Run the normal work and pull in an extra job to offset payment...just a way to rationalize.

Just keep in mind...TM, cheap machine...good bang for the buck...but add those options...60K is ridiculous for a TM...same goes for the VF. Keep it simple...

TheLaw · Feb 21, 2018

kpotter said:
I have never run a cnc mill but I have reached the point where I pretty much have to do something. I am looking at buying a haas. The shop down the street has a 2017 TM2p they paid 60 grand for it. They are willing to sell it to me for 25 grand cash. My question is this, should I by a vf1 and pay 50 grand for it new or would this machine be fine. I am not a job shop we manufucture our own products. I am planning to have someone program and do set up for us and we will operate it. We cut both steel and aluminum parts. Speed is not a concern, we run all manual machines currently so this will be crazy fast even at a fraction of the speed.

Well, if you decided not to buy the TM-2, please send me a pm with the seller's info.

Kevin Wilkins · Feb 22, 2018

Sounds like you are making only parts for your own company and not doing outside work. If so, the TM-2 is a great deal. See if you can make a typical part of yours on the TM and if it is OK, buy it. In 6 months or a year if you decide CNC is for you, you can always get your money back on the Haas by reselling it and buy a VF 2 or other larger, faster machine. I bought my TM-1 in 2005 thinking if things go south I can easily sell it. Things went great though and now I also have a Haas Mini Mill. Love both machines.

Are they the mountain top of CNC milling technology? No. But both are a great value and since I only do parts for my own use, they have made the difference between staying in business and going out of business. A VF2 would still be cool... maybe next year? Right now I’m still cranking along, doing well.

scojen · Mar 12, 2018

kpotter I have a TM-2P 40x16 travels 6k spindle bare bones 35k new the one your looking at with the options go for 42k plus for 25k and the type of work you do this may be more than enough to meet your current needs. I really have not pushed the limits of the machine tool usually keep the spindle load under 40% it does the job I have set it up for quite well. If I needed another I would be all over that deal for 25k.

Need advice on Haas vf1 vs haas tm2

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