New Haas VF-2SSYT w/side mount tool changer has lost a tool, no service until Monday.

We were running a program for the third time, with no changes of any kind when a tool change came up with no tool. The tool that had been successfully pulled the first two runs was still sitting in the tool changer. As far as the machine is concerned, it knows exactly where tool 12 is, but of course it isn't where the machine says. Any ideas on how this could possibly have happened, because this kind of error can be devastating?

So tool 12 is in the magazine and the spindle is empty? Did it not stuff the previous tool back into the magazine on tool change? Or did it simple not do the tool change and leave the previous tool in the spindle? More info would help.

If you go to through the current commands menus you'll find the screen that lists what tool number is in what pocket number. Check if everything in there is right.

I agree we need more info.


Does the control say tool 12? Look at the SMTC and note the number (pocket number) that the tool you think should be tool 12. Enter P## (number on tool changer) then ATCFWD or RVS. What tool does it show on the control after it changes tools?

I've got an '06 with the smtc and have never had it put the wrong tool in the spindle.

Also, with the pre-stage if you just call M6 on your program but the stage was incorrect, that could cause a problem.

Armedsask said:

So tool 12 is in the magazine and the spindle is empty? Did it not stuff the previous tool back into the magazine on tool change? Or did it simple not do the tool change and leave the previous tool in the spindle? More info would help.

If you go to through the current commands menus you'll find the screen that lists what tool number is in what pocket number. Check if everything in there is right.

Click to expand...

The previous tool (tool 10) was returned to the magazine but tool 12, which was to be next in the program, was not actually retrieved from its assigned pocket (16).

As the machine is sitting right now, waiting for the service person to show up, all of the pocket assignments are correct, but the machine says that tool 12 is in the spindle. There is no tool in the spindle, tool 12 is in pocket 16, where it was placed during the previous run of the program.

The program was not changed, nothing was changed. Tool 10 was finished running its part of the program, just like the first two runs, and when the tool change was done for tool 12, the spindle was empty and the machine continued to run as if all was normal, yet at I said above, tool 12 was safely and oh so quietly sitting in pocket 16.

I don't want to make any attempt to retrieve tool 12 until the service person sees that the machine has lost track of it first. They will have to clearly explain how this could happen and what measures can be taken to make sure it does not happen again. If not, they can have the machine back, because if down the road it crashes hard, I don't want to have to pay for a new vise, table, spindle, etc.

So what tool does it show as the tool in pocket 16 on the pocket page?


Just for a little info - do you guys run any other Haas SMTC machines? How old it this particular machine?

As I mentioned, I have had mine since 2006 and have never experienced this. It seemed pretty foolproof...and I can't recall ever hearing anyone else having this problem.

Another question: Just what pocket is the previous - Tool 10 - is in now?

tc1999 said:

So what tool does it show as the tool in pocket 16 on the pocket page?


Just for a little info - do you guys run any other Haas SMTC machines? How old it this particular machine?

As I mentioned, I have had mine since 2006 and have never experienced this. It seemed pretty foolproof...and I can't recall ever hearing anyone else having this problem.

Click to expand...

I would have to check the pocket page tomorrow, I'm already done for the day. This machine (VF-2SSYT) was just delivered a few weeks ago, brand new, and it is our first machine with the SMTC.

I'll get back to you with the pocket page info, but I'm thinking that it will reflect the same information as the tool listing, which has every tool in every pocket correctly listed, including tool 12, except that it says tool 12 is currently in the spindle, which it is not. It is, again, sitting in its assigned pocket 16 location and the spindle is empty.

I realized that this was an uncommon situation, since I could not find any previous threads on the subject anywhere. As such, I will most definitely follow up with whatever determination is made as to the cause, and any measures that could prevent any future occurrences.

SeymourDumore said:

Another question: Just what pocket is the previous - Tool 10 - is in now?

Click to expand...

Tool 10 is in pocket 13, which is the pocket location listed in the tool info/offset table.

rdburns said:

which has every tool in every pocket correctly listed, including tool 12, except that it says tool 12 is currently in the spindle, which it is not.

Click to expand...

Hmm

It THINKS tool 12 is in the spindle AND it THINKS it's also in pocket 16?
At the same time?
Yet the previously used tool (tool10 ) is in pocket 13?

What do you mean by " assigned"?

Since this is your first time with a side mount tool changer, and I don't know your experience level, I'm going to ask what you might consider a stupid question; are you aware that the tool changer doesn't return the tools to the same pockets? Pocket numbers and tool numbers are independent of each other.

Could this be part of the error? Perhaps a tool was loaded in the wrong pocket? Perhaps by an operator thinking tool 12 had to go into pocket 12?

No offence intended by this questions, of course.

Armedsask said:

Since this is your first time with a side mount tool changer, and I don't know your experience level, I'm going to ask what you might consider a stupid question; are you aware that the tool changer doesn't return the tools to the same pockets? Pocket numbers and tool numbers are independent of each other.

Could this be part of the error? Perhaps a tool was loaded in the wrong pocket? Perhaps by an operator thinking tool 12 had to go into pocket 12?

No offence intended by this questions, of course.

Click to expand...

If there had been some changes made to the tooling between the second and third run of this particular program, I might suspect operator error of some kind, but the only thing that was changed between running the second and third part was changing out the piece of material. No changes were made to the program or the tooling, and all three parts were run during the same shift. No errors of any kind with the first two parts, then the tool change screw up occurred.

As for pocket locations changing, I'm aware that they will change to accommodate faster tool changes, but I'll admit that we are still trying to get used to this whole thing, what with being so used to the old umbrella style tool changer on our other mill.

No offense taken, not even from a Canadian who spells offense with a "c" (it's a dead giveaway that you're of British Empire lineage, eh).

SeymourDumore said:

Hmm

It THINKS tool 12 is in the spindle AND it THINKS it's also in pocket 16?
At the same time?
Yet the previously used tool (tool10 ) is in pocket 13?

What do you mean by " assigned"?

Click to expand...

By "assigned" I mean, according to the tool offset table, tool 12 is "assigned" pocket 16. Every tool currently in the machine (tools 1-16, & tool 23) has a pocket assigned to it, not that these don't change, but that is where the machine assumes them to be at the moment, unless the tool is in the spindle. But even then, the tool in the spindle has a pocket location listed which I assume would be the pocket from which it was pulled before it was placed in the spindle.

This may all be the result of having nobody in our tiny shop who has any experience with this type of tool changer, but I still don't understand how the same program can be run twice with no problems whatsoever and on the third run we get a tool change that results in a tool being left in the carousel and the spindle empty.

rdburns said:

This may all be the result of having nobody in our tiny shop who has any experience with this type of tool changer

Click to expand...

At this point, I think we can call this a bug. I never so much as leaned up against a CNC machine before I bought my VF-2ss and mine has never had this wrong-tool issue. Trust me, as I was learning, I would have found a way to mess that up if it was possible. I'm betting there is a software issue, or possibly a sensor issue in the turret. I'm leaning towards software though. It's under warranty... don't be bashful about calling your HFO!

rdburns said:

By "assigned" I mean, according to the tool offset table, tool 12 is "assigned" pocket 16.

Click to expand...

Interesting...

As it stands right now, tool#10 should be in pocket 16 and tool#12 be in the spindle.

SeymourDumore said:

Hmm

It THINKS tool 12 is in the spindle AND it THINKS it's also in pocket 16?
At the same time?
Yet the previously used tool (tool10 ) is in pocket 13?

What do you mean by " assigned"?

Click to expand...

I didn't notice you mention what the control thinks is actually in the spindle. Like Seymore, I can't see it thinking that both pocket 16 and the spindle have tool 12.

Can you post the program? I'm interested in seeing how you guys are controlling tool changes. It could explain it.

Matt@RFR said:

At this point, I think we can call this a bug. I never so much as leaned up against a CNC machine before I bought my VF-2ss and mine has never had this wrong-tool issue. Trust me, as I was learning, I would have found a way to mess that up if it was possible. I'm betting there is a software issue, or possibly a sensor issue in the turret. I'm leaning towards software though. It's under warranty... don't be bashful about calling your HFO!

Click to expand...

A bug there might be, but I previously left out an incident that, as it turns out, was absolutely the reason for all of this.

But first, my apologies for not posting any comments about this for a bit. I came down with a doozey of a cold so I haven't been in to work except for a couple of days when I thought the service tech was going to show up (he didn’t) Our service call kept getting pushed out, so I just stayed home and tried to rest. Well, yesterday the service guy showed up, but before I got in. With nobody at work who could describe the problem, he didn't see anything wrong, but he did leave his cell number.

Frustrated, I went ahead and retrieved tool 12 from pocket 16, got the program back to the point where it needed tool 12 and put it in the spindle. I finished running that part and started another, and damn if it didn't do it again when tool 12 came up. No tool. So I called the service guy's cell phone and left a message.

Surprisingly, he showed up about an hour later. Really cool guy. After I explained that the empty spindle should have a tool in it, he brought up the tool pocket table which had been mentioned by a couple of you. Everything looked ok at first, but then he noticed that there were two tool 12's (this takes a minute to notice, as the pockets are listed in order, but the tool numbers tend to jump all over the place).

What I should have mentioned before was that in the first week after we received this machine (first week of November), we somehow managed to create two tool 12's, but as far as I knew the "duplicate tool 12" problem had been resolved. Well, it did not show up in the tool offset table, but there it was, clear as day in the pocket table.

Clearing the duplicate tool was easy at that point (even though we assumed it had already been cleared) but now the question remains; how the hell did the machine allow the creation of two tool 12's? And that is where the "bug" might still be. Hopefully nobody will be able to accidentally create a duplicate tool number again down the road, but if this software version allowed it to happen once, it can do it again under whatever circumstances under which it happened the first time. We’ll just have to keep a close eye on that pocket table from now on.

Sorry for the long winded response, but I wanted to make sure the resolution of this problem was fully communicated to everyone who offered their help, and to help out anyone who might run into this situation in the future. Thanks to everyone who responded to my post.

Thanks for the explanation and dont just come back here when you have a problem. Visit often and participate with us as often as you can. Glad to hear you think your repair guy is a nice fellow, good type of people to be friends with.

Charles

rdburns said:

Sorry for the long winded response, but I wanted to make sure the resolution of this problem was fully communicated to everyone who offered their help, and to help out anyone who might run into this situation in the future. Thanks to everyone who responded to my post.

Click to expand...

No worry about the long wind, in fact it's much appreciated!
That is how we all learn possible mishaps and gotchas with various controls.
This is certainly an intreresting one which may or may not ever get fixed, but knowing about it will help out others in the future.

So the machine was fetching the correct tool, but it was the incorrect correct tool. Good stuff!

Can you think back and explain how you created a second T12? I didn't think that was even possible.

We’ll just have to keep a close eye on that pocket table from now on.

Click to expand...

There is no foolproof software, because fools are so inventive.
From now on, you know what to look for when this happens again.

I had an error message on my Haas lathe that was of no help at all. It simply stopped running in the simulation with that stupid message and no hint to where the error is. It took quite some time until I found that I used the non-existing Y-axis. So much in respect to "fool".


Nick