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VF2 vs VF2SS

Kapster

Cast Iron
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Location
Ohio, USA
We're looking to purchase either a vf2 or the super speed model. If we got the regular vf2, we'd upgrade to the 10,000 spindle and most likely the side mount tool changer( pros and cons of that?). It would be nice sometimes to have the 12,000 spindle of the ss but not a deal breaker. We dont really need the faster rapids.

I have seen it mentioned, is rigidity still an issue on the ss model? I think what they were blaming it on was the courser ball screw pitch. Ive asked our salesman and he claims he's never heard of it. We machine 1018 steel alot, sometimes 6061 aluminum. On occasion tool steel.

Also, do you lose and torque on the 12,000 spindle over the 10,000?

What makes the vf2ss heavier than the vf2? Is it just the side mount changer being standard?

Thanks!
 
These two machines are practically identical except for 2 main things:

1. The coarse pitch balls screws
2. The spindle cartridge

The motor (and thus the torque curves) is actually the same in the 10k standard machine and the 12k SS. The only complaints I have heard with regards to the SS machines have been in machines larger than a VF-3 (particularly the YT machines, which are much to deep for a C frame machine anyways) where there have been a couple reported cases of surface finish/contouring problems.

You may be able to get the SS for less than the optioned up standard machine... Might be worth it to try to get some sample parts made for you to help you decide
 
I don't know if I can help much here but we have a fairly new almost 2 year old VF2-SS. I do mostly aluminum in it and it flies. No B/S I have reduced cycle times by over 50% on jobs that preciously ran in my FADAL 4020. The FADAL has a 10K spindle but suffers from age and finishes are not that great when machining at high feed rates with larger tools, not a great comparison. I have run 303,316 and 304 stainless in the VF2 and it handles heavy cuts just fine but I am conservative when programing this stuff anyway.
My HFO is Trident and I can't say enough good things about those guys. They respond fast and Ive never waited longer than two days to get a guy out here, it's usually next day when we have needed help. I also have a SL-20 that is going on six years old. This machine runs seven days a weeks and produces good parts all day. Most of our troubles have been self induced and I intend on staying a HAAS guy for as long as I own a job shop.

Ron
 
i have a year old vf2ss and another coming in next week. not our first machine, but our first haas. i never knew the struggle of an umbrella tool changer and im glad i never will. i couldnt imagine dealing with the hassle and time of it. for the price i think vf2ss is better because you need the tool changer IMO and might as well get higher spindle speeds and rapids while your at it. i dont always use 100% rapid speed but when i do, its cuz i usually wanna finish that last prototype at 120% feed on friday at 3:00. after using it pretty much every day since we got it and doing prototype, production, and different materials a few options i would recommend. chip auger is needed sometimes. i have one sitting in a box for the new one and the new machine is coming with it. im sure itll have its draw backs but sometimes its needed. i would like a remote jog handle for all the setting up i do, so if you got the cash spend it. after doing lots of tool steels i wish i had TSC, oh yea and most recently i could use a pallet changer haha
 
i have a year old vf2ss and another coming in next week. not our first machine, but our first haas. i never knew the struggle of an umbrella tool changer and im glad i never will. i couldnt imagine dealing with the hassle and time of it. for the price i think vf2ss is better because you need the tool changer IMO and might as well get higher spindle speeds and rapids while your at it. i dont always use 100% rapid speed but when i do, its cuz i usually wanna finish that last prototype at 120% feed on friday at 3:00. after using it pretty much every day since we got it and doing prototype, production, and different materials a few options i would recommend. chip auger is needed sometimes. i have one sitting in a box for the new one and the new machine is coming with it. im sure itll have its draw backs but sometimes its needed. i would like a remote jog handle for all the setting up i do, so if you got the cash spend it. after doing lots of tool steels i wish i had TSC, oh yea and most recently i could use a pallet changer haha

What struggle are you referring to on the unbrella tool changer? Ive run several machines with them, never had to much trouble.

We were planning on the auger. our dealer told us the jog handle is not needed on such a small machine, if we're under budget i might consider it. I appreciated his honesty.

How do you guys feel about the accuracy of the ss over the standard machine? Their talking about it in another thread, how a courser screw cant be as accurate as a finer one.
 
What struggle are you referring to on the unbrella tool changer? Ive run several machines with them, never had to much trouble.

We were planning on the auger. our dealer told us the jog handle is not needed on such a small machine, if we're under budget i might consider it. I appreciated his honesty.

How do you guys feel about the accuracy of the ss over the standard machine? Their talking about it in another thread, how a courser screw cant be as accurate as a finer one.

umbrella style works fine when setting up a job and letting it run for a while id imagine. but we do lots of set ups and testing and sometimes we add tools or change things up and i like the ability to just stage any tool and have a super fast tool change. not reset up the entire umbrella and change tools numbers. maybe i am wrong (never ran one) but id imagine thats where the "struggle" comes in

again the jog handle probably wouldnt be needed for setting up a job and letting it run for a while. but sometimes during harder setups i find myself walking around the machine to check for clearance then back to the controller. would be nice to just stare at the tight areas with capability of controlling the machine.

ive never seen an issue where the machine wasnt accurate enough and i do holes and depths with +/- .001. seems like tooling and setup are still more of an issue than the machine.

just giving my opinion from using one everyday from prog to run.
 
I am not a big fan of the auger for the simple fact that its hard to keep your chips separate. The chips just all mash together in the tune so they just mix together. With a conveyor its nice because it kicks them all out of the machine and you can easily keep the different types of material separate. But i do like the 12,000 rpm spindle, extra feed, and fast tool changes the SS allows.
 
to my knowledge a conveyor is not offered, atleast on these machines. i havent even used mine yet (not installed yet) and i know it is gonna mix material and that kinda annoys me. but the day i was removing tons of material on a single pc and by the end of the cycle the machine table was forcing it self against chips i said we need a conveyor.
 
Yea i think your right, no conveyor. they have a single auger or a multi auger that has augers running from front to back pulling chips into the main auger. Auger is better than nothing i figure.

Does the tsc add alot of complexity? Seems to me 300psi going through a spindle at 12,000 is just asking for problems. They have a remote filter for it thats pretty pricey, is that a must have?

I guess im just a little nervous with what machine we pick. My previous job i ran a haas mini mill, we did all kinds of stuff on that machine that "haas haters" would probably say no haas can do let alone their little wimpy mill. Ive been trying to get a haas into our shop now for 7 years and finally its happening. I just dont want it to come in and somebody say i told you so.
 
The 300psi TSC is dead simple and reliable. All it is, is a second pump in the coolant tank and a rotary union on top of the spindle. The unions do go bad, but if memory serves are not super expensive and can be replaced in a couple hours yourself. I run mine quite a bit at 12,000 with no problems at all. It will heat your coolant up, so be mindful of that.

I have an '07 VF-2ss. I mostly run medium production these days and would be in a blind rage if I had to wait on a standard VF-2 to make the same parts. We hold +.0005" / -0 on interpolated bores all the time in a variety of materials without issue, checked with gauge pins or bore gauges. X and Y are solid throughout the day and Z will grow .001" over the first hour of the day.

This machine has been pretty reliable. Repairs include the aforementioned TSC rotary coupler, a board and something else I'm not remembering right now. We've been running it 7 days a week, 8-16 hours per day for the last 2 1/2 years. Not bad in my book. My next machine will be the same thing.
 
What about pcool, good or bad? Ive read alot of people saying it breaks alot and they end up unplugging it. Probably hard to adjust nozzles with the door interlock...
 
We have a 1 year old SS. After having an umbrella style changer that took for-e-ver to change a tool, it's pretty awesome and I'd never order another umbrella.

Accuracy - perfect for our parts but if you are trying for tenths maybe consider the slower VM machine instead. The SS is built for production, baby! We're not a job shop. I think most of the Haas bashing on accuracy truly comes from employees posting on this site, not owners that write the checks for a machine. Would I like a $200K machine that does the same thing but doubles my part cost? Uhh... no, actually. Plus I'm not giving $200K of my money to the Japanese, sorry if I offend anyone.

Or maybe it's the internet stuff about Haaspower... let me tell you our parts are small and pushing the cut to max results in a part being ripped out and flung across the mill. So the HP is just fine, and we never come close to maxing the spindle but I want 12K for all the alu we run. :-) So if you're hogging steel - but then what would you want a 12K spindle for??? I mean, it still does cut it but that's gear box time, right?

I priced out the loaded VF vs. the SS and basically the SS is the shiz for what we do. IMO either go cheap VF stripped down, or go SS or VM. I think it depends on who is standing in front of the machine - I'm kinda impatient ha ha ha.

The SS and VM are "packages" of options that carry a discount and are configured for a particular work environment and goals - makes sense.

There are some accuracy settings in the Haas control that I've noticed that might impact accuracy, like the exact XY stop for canned cycles... and the corner rounding max... I wonder if the people complaining about accuracy know where the settings are in the controller. I also wonder if they read the owners manual.

And IMO your sales guy is right, no remote jog needed, the 2 is small enough to lean in there and still reach the controls. Remote would be great on a VF4 or so.

I went through your same decision process last year. Decided against TSC from the get-go as we don't do too much deep drilling, and will just peck. However, the machine is already configured for it, just add pump later if you want. It has the attachments and rotary union installed already.

Hope this helps !!
 
What about pcool, good or bad? Ive read alot of people saying it breaks alot and they end up unplugging it. Probably hard to adjust nozzles with the door interlock...

If by pcool you mean programmable coolant, it is a must have. If you actually mean TSC through the spindle, that is somewhat different. Had it before and didn't use it all that much. All the tools and drills would have to have the hole/s through them and such. More maintenance too, but not terrible. Mostly depends on your budget. They are nice for deep hole drilling in molds and such, but you need the special tools.

Mike
 
What about pcool, good or bad? Ive read alot of people saying it breaks alot and they end up unplugging it. Probably hard to adjust nozzles with the door interlock...

It is a servo motor, it will of likely strip gears and break if you grab it to adjust it, or program to hit against a part or the 4th axis. Other than user error, I believe it lasts quite a while, as I haven't heard of them wearing out other than abuse. Oh, and if the motor in it ever does die, it's the first thing I'm fixing !

It is an awesome add-on, though, and mandatory. No more babysitting a part and adjusting loc-lines for me. :-)
 
Is there any downsides to having tsc if you dont use it alot? Ive heard some machines, the upper end of the rpm range cant be used without running the tsc? Is haas that way?

Soo programmable coolant sounds ok then? Might have to add that one.
 
Is there any downsides to having tsc if you dont use it alot? Ive heard some machines, the upper end of the rpm range cant be used without running the tsc? Is haas that way?

Soo programmable coolant sounds ok then? Might have to add that one.

On my machines with a deublin rotary coupling there is a graph that says how much pressure and what rpm the coupling is good for. For example you might be able to use 1000psi from 0-8000 rpm and only 800 psi at 10,000 rpm. Not sure about Haas' coupling. Deublin does have a replacement if the Haas coupling dies. Typically the couplings used in mills are they type where the seals are carbide and they separate when the coolant is off. So if your not running the TSC the seals aren't touching and you won't even notice the coupling is there.
 
On my machines with a deublin rotary coupling there is a graph that says how much pressure and what rpm the coupling is good for. For example you might be able to use 1000psi from 0-8000 rpm and only 800 psi at 10,000 rpm. Not sure about Haas' coupling. Deublin does have a replacement if the Haas coupling dies. Typically the couplings used in mills are they type where the seals are carbide and they separate when the coolant is off. So if your not running the TSC the seals aren't touching and you won't even notice the coupling is there.

Thanks for the info there. Cool to know the seals separate when not using it, thats what i really wanted to know. I think we'll use it but wont be very often.

I spoke to my salesman today, he talked like the haas union is an improvement on the deublin. He said the only limitation is max rpm of 12,000 with tsc on, so on a vf2ss thats no problem. He really wasnt quick to say i needed through coolant, he was halfway talking me out of it. He said alot of tooling salesman act like if you dont have through coolant you cant hardly machine anything. So im not really sure at this point if i want it or not. We have to watch our tooling costs, and im not really sure we'll be able to justify through coolant drills. We're not usually pressed for time either, if it takes a little longer to drill a hole oh well. I think it would be sweet on indexable end mills and facemills sometimes, maybe im wrong? Id like to try using allied spade drills more often, through coolant on those is almost a must ive been told. How big could the haas handle in a spade drill in say 1018?

Do you ever get problems with the coolant getting on the cat 40 tapers, as far as gumming stuff up or anything?

Sorry for all the questions, really appreciate the help guys. Hope to be ordering this next week.
 
I have 2 haas verticals, one with 300pis TSC and one with out. Yes it is expensive but worth it when you need it. I drill 1" diameter holes 12" with a kennametal KSEM drill in just over 1 minute and the 300 psi system was enough to keep chips pushed out. I could not have run the job with out it. I also drill CDA 954 which can be slow drilling due to nickel in it. I use 1/4" carbide drills and can drill over 30 ipm with no pecking. So yes it can be very useful, but i have one with out it and get by just fine. I am in a similar situation in that an extra few minutes on my parts in not a big deal.

Yes the coolant will get on the tool holders and in the spindle bore during tool changes. The problem I have is when using a small drill the holes are so small that the system does not have enough time to bleed down pressure and coolant would blast from spindle on tool change. I have since changed the TSC air purge parameter to allow longer for the TCS system to bleed pressure and purge coolant. It helps but tools still get covered. I think on the newer machines the purging is slightly different. I saw a demo on a new VF2SS and it would blow coolant from a hole in front bottom of the spindle housing.
 
I was in the same position Kapster. If it takes a little longer "so what", we don't do much deep hole drilling. The stock coolant pump is a gusher, it really works well by itself. I think it's a 1hp ? it pumps some serious volume.

TSC would be the ticket for deep drilling, for sure. 300psi if you use big drills, 1000 if you use tiny drills (smaller the drill, higher the pressure needed).

But you can always add it later. The machine comes set up and already plumbed for it, just add pump system. So you don't have to even worry about making that decision, really.
 








 
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