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Why is there so little discussion on the Haas VM2/ VM3 machines?

sirgreggins

Aluminum
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
In 9-12 months my father and I will be buying a VMC for our shop. We currently build automation equipment but I want to start pulling in machining work in addition to machining parts in house. I learned CNC on a Haas so for the time being, I think Haas would be a good machine for us since I know the control well. There is a lot of discussion about the VF series machines but almost nothing about the VM (mold machine) series. Does anyone own one? Thoughts? We are looking at ~$100K + $25K in tooling.

Also, for those of you that recommend another machine/brand can you tell me the comparable machine models and prices?
Haas posts prices online, everyone else seems to be a quote.
 
Personally I wouldn't consider any Haas a mold machine, so "fine pitch ball screws" are just a bandaid to a mediocre machine of any model made by them. The SS have better rapids (not necessarily great acceleration) and faster toolchanges and for anything that can go on a Haas IMO those are more beneficial than a slotted table and slower feeds with some sort of ethereal hint at greater accuracy.

No Haas is rigid enough or has good enough thermals IMO to be a mold machine no matter what name they give the thing.

Edit: so supposedly the axis motors have more thrust and the table will hold more weight, but it'll move half the speed and take longer to change every tool, and all that is still backed up by the same Haaspower spindle. And I'm sure there are others here who will be far more critical of Haas than in my assessment. I program and run a VF-6SS FWIW.
 
Personally I wouldn't consider any Haas a mold machine, so "fine pitch ball screws" are just a bandaid to a mediocre machine of any model made by them. The SS have better rapids (not necessarily great acceleration) and faster toolchanges and for anything that can go on a Haas IMO those are more beneficial than a slotted table and slower feeds with some sort of ethereal hint at greater accuracy.

No Haas is rigid enough or has good enough thermals IMO to be a mold machine no matter what name they give the thing.

Edit: so supposedly the axis motors have more thrust and the table will hold more weight, but it'll move half the speed and take longer to change every tool, and all that is still backed up by the same Haaspower spindle. And I'm sure there are others here who will be far more critical of Haas than in my assessment. I program and run a VF-6SS FWIW.

I agree, I have a VM3 and a VF3. While my HAAS buying days are over I can say the VF has been a much better machine. I can't explain why I have a hunch the finer pitch screws actually generate more heat due to having to turn 2x as much as a SS screw. I can see .003-.005 growth in the z axis thru the day. Very difficult to hold z IMO on them.

Don't get me wrong my haas have been pretty much trouble free from a maintenance side and have made me good money. I had a job to thread some 15-5 H1025 and the HAAS are just not rigid enough for it.
 
.003-.005" makes me nervous. That's way too much. What other machines would you guys recommend in that price range? DMG Mori, Mazak, Matsuura, Okuma, etc...

I won't ever be doing mold work, if I did get into that world I would absolutely look at others.
 
.003-.005" makes me nervous. That's way too much. What other machines would you guys recommend in that price range? DMG Mori, Mazak, Matsuura, Okuma, etc...

I won't ever be doing mold work, if I did get into that world I would absolutely look at others.

Given some of the recent posts on them, I'd be looking hard at Doosan and Hardinge/Bridgeport in that price range. PM member Wrustle just bought a Samsung MCV-400 at the very end of last year, but of course aside from first impressions, in classic Wrustle form, he hasn't told us how it runs yet or whether he's even powered it up :rolleyes5:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/new-machine-day-samsung-mcv-400-a-328861/

So I'd look at them too but with a little more caution I think.

As usual, everything depends on the service you can get as well. Everyone wants the perfect machine that never breaks down, but it will at some point, and it's going to matter how fast it can be up and running again first, with cost for that service coming in a close second IMO.
 
look at the Doosan dnm5700 ,, There a WAY better machine than Haas for way less money ... I have a new Doosan right next to two newer Haas mills in the shop and I can say hands down I would "NEVER" waste my money on more new Haas machines ,,, the Doosan is twice the machine as the haas mills next to it.

I thought Haas mills were ok machines for the money tell I got there new POS next gen machine and had to make them remove it from my shop after 7 months of not fitting the control, and after buying a new Doosan machine for less money and running it side by side with the Haas mills every day I can easily say Haas needs to step up there game.
 
Doosan dnm5700 sold by Ellison

41" by 22" travels
LNS chip conveyor with twin side augers
big 40 spindle
12K spindle
30 tool atc
Roller guideways ( not ball ways )
25 HP spindle ( not Haas hp thats rated like a shop vac )
through spindle coolant (230 PSI)
Portable manual pulse generator
EZ guide I ( its junk just like the haas conversational programming )
Fanuc 0i ser F control ( not the low end model )
2 year warranty

All at a price of $79.900

I wish I had two more of them on my floor and not the Haas vf2ss and vf4ss ,, its Faster, WAY more rigid , and I really like the TSC and chip conveyor .

Bottom line is going from Haas to Doosan has been like going from a Kia to a honda but at a price that is even less than the Kia ....

I`m all for buying american but when Haas sent out there POS next gen control to me and forced me to go shopping for a machine that would run as it should I was forced by them to look at off shore machines ,, and Doosan was more machine for less money.
 
:eek: Please tell me that's a typo.

Nope. I have probed a tool cold in the morning and by cold I mean 68-70 deg in a shop with good heat and insulation. I run a warm up cycle at 50% that moves the axis full travel for a few minutes while ramping up the spindle in 500 rpm increments. If I reprobe the tool it will be off .002" If I were to run it at 100% the z axis ball screw get warm and get out of control.

I will try to take a video or some pictures some time.
 
Doosan dnm5700 sold by Ellison

41" by 22" travels
LNS chip conveyor with twin side augers
big 40 spindle
12K spindle
30 tool atc
Roller guideways ( not ball ways )
25 HP spindle ( not Haas hp thats rated like a shop vac )
through spindle coolant (230 PSI)
Portable manual pulse generator
EZ guide I ( its junk just like the haas conversational programming )
Fanuc 0i ser F control ( not the low end model )
2 year warranty

All at a price of $79.900

I wish I had two more of them on my floor and not the Haas vf2ss and vf4ss ,, its Faster, WAY more rigid , and I really like the TSC and chip conveyor .

Bottom line is going from Haas to Doosan has been like going from a Kia to a honda but at a price that is even less than the Kia ....

I`m all for buying american but when Haas sent out there POS next gen control to me and forced me to go shopping for a machine that would run as it should I was forced by them to look at off shore machines ,, and Doosan was more machine for less money.

Was that price for a DNM5700 or a left over DNM500? I saw the flyer for the 79,900 for the 500 but not the 5700. I would be interested in one at that price and options
 
Nope. I have probed a tool cold in the morning and by cold I mean 68-70 deg in a shop with good heat and insulation. I run a warm up cycle at 50% that moves the axis full travel for a few minutes while ramping up the spindle in 500 rpm increments. If I reprobe the tool it will be off .002" If I were to run it at 100% the z axis ball screw get warm and get out of control.
Damn, that is terrible. My '07 VF-2ss' spindle will grow about .0005" by between 10:00am and noon depending on the parts, but that's it. And the furthest I've ever seen the same tool on the tool setter be off was I think .0003" or so.
 
It sounds like Haas has really dropped the ball in recent years. Too bad. I always liked them for simplicity but rigidity, speed, features etc make the difference. How is the Doosan control?
 
Back in 2011 I was a HAAS Spain HFO sales manger.

We sold many (5+) machines to mold shops, most in VM6 size.
Customer satisfaction rate was 100%.

Accuracy was, according to them, as good as the expensive high end machines they also had.
Chiron, Mori, etc.
Some took glass scales, where accuracy was paramount.

Look...
Of 5k machines plus I had data on, in 25 years sold, accuracy had never been a problem to the customer with HAAS.
Some other things, of course, had had issues.

Nothing is perfect, and there is no unwearium as a machine tool material.
I am not in the game now, no personal relationship or profit.

I just feel bad when people belittle a brand with great customer service, great policies overall.
Great history.

I am a fan of Gene Haas "treat people well" policies, that we did, and he helped with, for a vast nr of clients.
Much better, vastly better, than many big companies anywhere. Ime.

The machines as such are good.
Better ones technically do exist, yes, for more money.

Better service, support, resale retail value did not exist, until 2012, at least.
Mine is an EU perspective.
 
that price is on the new dnm5700 not the older model ...

They have the new Fanuc 0i series F control on them ... its not like a D control and its not the 30 series ... its close to the 30 series from what I can tell ...

I got the first haas control in my shop 3 years ago and it was about two days of head scratching to get a job up and running and about two weeks tell I could just do stuff without having to stop and think about it at all

when the Doosan got here I had not worked with Fanuc in over 20 years and it was about the same learning curve as Haas ... might have been a little longer to get some of the basics down on it in that its not as intuitive as the haas control. But after a few months of working with it I can load a program, set up tools and fixtures and get the parts coming off just as fast on it as I can on the Haas.

I would not say I like one control over the other both have there up and down sides . the Fanuc has dials for spindle speed and feed rate override so I can set what I want and its great for running the first part ,,, the Haas has the stupid buttons that give you 10% changes.

the Haas control is a little better at getting around in and finding what your looking for but to me the big thing is how do they do at making parts .. That is were the Doosan really starts to leave Haas in the dust ... The doosan is built like a tank ,,, it does not move around and shake like the Haas mills. I can program and run what speed and feed "I" want and not what the "MACHINE" well take.

I do a lot of alum parts on the haas at 12k RPM I can easily run out of power on a 3/8" endmill before I run out of feed... The Doosan will push a 1/2" endmill tell it snaps at 12K rpm and I still had more power to go.

The vf4ss and the Doosan are both set up with the same 2 1/2" facemills and the only change between them is the Doosan with the big plus spindle has a Dual drive holder and it has cut my facing time in half ,,, with the Haas I would take a .070 cut and then have to come back with a .010 cut to get a nice clean surface and with the Doosan its a single .080 cut and no finish pass needed.

Running the haas and the Doosan side by side it becomes REALLY clear what machine I well be buying next year.
 
that price is on the new dnm5700 not the older model ...

They have the new Fanuc 0i series F control on them ... its not like a D control and its not the 30 series ... its close to the 30 series from what I can tell ...

I got the first haas control in my shop 3 years ago and it was about two days of head scratching to get a job up and running and about two weeks tell I could just do stuff without having to stop and think about it at all

when the Doosan got here I had not worked with Fanuc in over 20 years and it was about the same learning curve as Haas ... might have been a little longer to get some of the basics down on it in that its not as intuitive as the haas control. But after a few months of working with it I can load a program, set up tools and fixtures and get the parts coming off just as fast on it as I can on the Haas.

I would not say I like one control over the other both have there up and down sides . the Fanuc has dials for spindle speed and feed rate override so I can set what I want and its great for running the first part ,,, the Haas has the stupid buttons that give you 10% changes.

the Haas control is a little better at getting around in and finding what your looking for but to me the big thing is how do they do at making parts .. That is were the Doosan really starts to leave Haas in the dust ... The doosan is built like a tank ,,, it does not move around and shake like the Haas mills. I can program and run what speed and feed "I" want and not what the "MACHINE" well take.

I do a lot of alum parts on the haas at 12k RPM I can easily run out of power on a 3/8" endmill before I run out of feed... The Doosan will push a 1/2" endmill tell it snaps at 12K rpm and I still had more power to go.

The vf4ss and the Doosan are both set up with the same 2 1/2" facemills and the only change between them is the Doosan with the big plus spindle has a Dual drive holder and it has cut my facing time in half ,,, with the Haas I would take a .070 cut and then have to come back with a .010 cut to get a nice clean surface and with the Doosan its a single .080 cut and no finish pass needed.

Running the haas and the Doosan side by side it becomes REALLY clear what machine I well be buying next year.

Thank you for the info. I can't buy thru Ellison and hope my local rep can match the price and options you mention. Did you get a probe on yours?
 
Accuracy was, according to them, as good as the expensive high end machines they also had.
Chiron, Mori, etc.
Some took glass scales, where accuracy was paramount.

Look...
Of 5k machines plus I had data on, in 25 years sold, accuracy had never been a problem to the customer with HAAS.
Some other things, of course, had had issues.

Nothing is perfect, and there is no unwearium as a machine tool material.
I am not in the game now, no personal relationship or profit.

I just feel bad when people belittle a brand with great customer service, great policies overall.
Great history.

I am a fan of Gene Haas "treat people well" policies, that we did, and he helped with, for a vast nr of clients.
Much better, vastly better, than many big companies anywhere. Ime.

The machines as such are good.
Better ones technically do exist, yes, for more money.

Better service, support, resale retail value did not exist, until 2012, at least.
Mine is an EU perspective.

I am not belittling HAAS they have made me a good living. Mine has done this from the day I owned it. I called the HFO and no one was really interested in talking about it. Here is a test I just preformed

All temps taken with a Fluke 51II

Shop temp 70.2deg
Final spindle housing temp 72.3
z axis ball screw, hot to touch. Hard to measure best I could reach with probe was 124deg.

3.2072 Tool offset at power on from previous day
3.2700 tool offset at startup
3.2752 tool offset after axis 50% and spindle ramp up to 7000 in 500 increments warm up cycle
3.2783 tool offset after axis 100% and spindle ramp up to 7000 in 500 increments warm up cycle
3.2762 tool offset @ 5min cool down

Not sure what the problem is ball screw is covered in red grease.
Either nut preload is wrong or z axis screw is so mis aligned it is binding.
 
Is it possible to find Mori's, Mazak's or Matuura's at the same price range. $100K-$125K I'm also interested in the Doosan's. A lot of people seem to like them. I know a few shop owners and companies that use Hurco's and swear by them. John Grimsmo made me want a Mori pretty bad.
 
Is it possible to find Mori's, Mazak's or Matuura's at the same price range. $100K-$125K I'm also interested in the Doosan's. A lot of people seem to like them. I know a few shop owners and companies that use Hurco's and swear by them. John Grimsmo made me want a Mori pretty bad.

Mori is supposed to stop by next week. I think the only thing they would have in that range is the CMX line.
 








 
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