Can you learn to scrape for alignment in 40 hour Richard King Class

I am writing all my PM friends and Students to comment on this thread.
Here is what has been asked of me in another thread and want my students to comment please:

ewlsey
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Originally Posted by Richard King
The guys who wrote one can't scrape ways in 2 days to 5 days are the ones who said the it was impossible in my opinion have never learned how to scrape by a pro and were self taught. I have been proving them wrong for 30 years. They can ask my students if I am BSing or not.
You always say this. Can you show us some proper machine ways scraped for bearing and alignment by someone who never held a scraper before and has only 5 days of training?

I'm not saying "can't" because I know it is possible. But, I'd like to see the results of your students for myself. I know what I could do at 40 hours and it worked, but I was not efficient.

Edit: 5/6/2017 4:40 PM: I say in the title "Scrape for Alignment" in 40 hours. I apologize for arguing with a few, but they challenged my integrity and truthfulness and I reacted.

The short answer is no, you can't learn to scrape for alignment in a forty hour class. When I took Richard's class out of the forty hour class Richard spent about an hour talking about machine alignment.

Thanks odd for you to say that Todd.. I showed you to scrape your grinder didn't I after I taught you to scrape. Didn't you see Cory scrape his Rung-FU and the Harvard guy scraping his compound? I seem to recall you were testing your small grinder when you were scraping it. Many others have had positive results. I hope your not saying this because I ticked you off when we talked about politics.

Richard King said:

Thanks odd.. I showed you to scrape your grinder didn't I ? Didn't you see Cory scrape his Rung-FU?

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No you didn't Richard. You told me it didn't make any differences whether the columns were square to the table or not.

Oh and learn to spell. My name is Todd

Richard King said:

Thanks odd for you to say that Todd.. I showed you to scrape your grinder didn't I after I taught you to scrape. Didn't you see Cory scrape his Rung-FU and the Harvard guy scraping his compound? I seem to recall you were testing your small grinder when you were scraping it. Many others have had positive results. I hope your not saying this because I ticked you off when we talked about politics.

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Doesn't have anything to do with politics. I gave you $1500.00 to learn to scrape and you spent most of the time telling us how good you are.

I assume all your student got the same email as I did fishing for compliments?

SIP6A said:

The short answer is no, you can't learn to scrape for alignment in a forty hour class. When I took Richard's class out of the forty hour class Richard spent about an hour talking about machine alignment.

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As a counter example, we spent one whole day in a class room at Tuckahoe discussing measurement and alignment, that what about one fifth of the class right there, and when individual projects came up Richard frequently gathered us to talk about the specifics of the scraping steps, needed to align that part. We spent about an hour discussing the use the Kingway. Based on my recollection that all would total about 10 hours of the total time out of the 40+ hours.

Can you cover all possible alignment issues that come up in real life? The answer is a definite no. Did we have enough examples to use as a template to apply to different situation? That is hard to answer, Was the class worth it, I still feel that is a resounding yes.

As to the original question, I think the answer is buried somewhere in the definition of "learn" If you define it as "acquire knowledge of" then it is yes, if you define it as "become proficient in" then it is no. What you become proficient at the end of the class is the ability of scraping flat and perpendicular to 40 or less PPI. And you will know the basics of how to measure for alignment. You are ready to learn from your own failures.

Had we had a class to rebuild lathe, or a mill, ground up, and discussed all the challenges, that would be different, but also would take a lot more time.

dee
;-D

SIP6A said:

Doesn't have anything to do with politics. I gave you $1500.00 to learn to scrape and you spent most of the time telling us how good you are.

I assume all your student got the same email as I did fishing for compliments?

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Here is what I emailed to hundreds of students who have taken my class in the past 5 years. Plus some custom emails to customers where I taught. I assume they will answer next week.

"I need your help and please comment on this Practical Machinist thread about your ability after the class.
I hope all is well with you and your family. Rich"

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...-alignment-40-hour-richard-king-class-334872/



Read what I said Todd...I said it was odd....

You have had a bad attitude toward me and another student in the Boston class who did not agree with your politics. You have also got mad when I called you a Master Tool Maker...How can anyone get mad over that?

I have given your name to the SME who were looking for teachers in MI to give advice to others, again you got mad at me. Why? I complimented your work. I do recall you thanked me for the class and never said anything negative at the time. I would have gladly refunded your money back then if you had told me you weren't happy. You have never said anything bad about the class until now.

I would like to get one to the subject and hear from other students.

Richard King said:

Here is what I emailed to hundreds of students who have taken my class in the past 5 years. Plus some custom emails to customers where I taught. I assume they will answer next week.

"I need your help and please comment on this Practical Machinist thread about your ability after the class.
I hope all is well with you and your family. Rich"

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...-alignment-40-hour-richard-king-class-334872/



Read what I said Todd...I said it was odd....

You have had a bad attitude toward me and another student in the Boston class who did not agree with your politics. You have also got mad when I called you a Master Tool Maker...How can anyone get mad over that?

I have given your name to the SME who were looking for teachers in MI to give advice to others, again you got mad at me. Why? I complimented your work. I do recall you thanked me for the class and never said anything negative at the time. I would have gladly refunded your money back then if you had told me you weren't happy. You have never said anything bad about the class until now.

I would like to get one to the subject and hear from other students.

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I don't give a shit what your politics are. It is highly unprofessional to bring up politics in a class with a bunch of people you don't know.

I paid $1500.00 to learn scraping not listen to you tell everybody how good you are.

You never called me a ToolMaker you called me a machinist. While that isn't a big deal it just shows how you never listen.

Someone brought it up and I gave them my opinion as you and the others did. It was before the last election and people were talking about it. You drove me to and from the hotel and we seemed to get along good, you never mentioned anything about not receiving a quality class. I said it is "odd" you never mentioned disappointment until now.

Having a bad day? I considered you as a friend then and would again give you now a Top Rating on your qualifications as a Top machinist/ designer / tool and mold maker, rookie machine rebuilder as you scraping and alignment has only improved your resume, etc. I could also could care less who you voted for. I did email everyone after the election and said you all knew how I felt after the last presidential election. Just can't understand why your so mad all the time. Rich

I received this comment from someone who took the class but wished to avoid confrontation with Richard. I've redacted it to respect his privacy.

What was "taught" could have been gone over in about an hour, and was very very simple. We just scraped a CI blank flat with hand and power scrapers.

Nothing about scraping to alignment or anything useful.

I was about ready to walk out when Rich spent literally two hours going over how to align the tailstock on a hobby size lathe.

It seemed like all he wanted too do was talk about politics, people he didn't like on PM and how smart he was.

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I was ready to take a class in Rockford, but comments like this and others who had negative interactions with Richard convinced me not to.

I can fully understand why others would be very hesitant to say negative things about Richard. He once claimed to have called a company I do work for to berate me after I disagreed with his political posts. I don't know if he did. Nothing was ever said to me. I know that he did the same thing to another member when he didn't like the way he wanted to rebuild a machine (which ended up working out great). That's the most underhanded behavior I can possibly imagine.

I'm sure there is much to be learned from Richard on a professional level. He clearly knows the subject of scraping. I even think that we could probably get along in person and I could benefit from his knowledge. But, it doesn't seem to work in the format of an internet forum.

You called me a 4 letter word and some other non mentionable X rated statements. (I still have that post even after you erased what you said) You are the one who PM'ed me telling me where you worked, I had never read many of your posts before that, I read a few, but you and I never seemed to have issues until you got mad when I commented on your compound scraping. I asked if you were real to that customer and they said your were a young guy and new to the rebuilding trade if I remember right. I hope to meet you next year when I will go back there to teach another class I will GIVE you the class for free to show you what can be learned.
If anyone wants to look at that company look back at the past threads. Rockford IL Rebuilding class held at Bourne & Koch. You can Goodgle it too. I have taught 2 classes there now.

You may have some issues but from the results of my continued student compliments and sold out classes I continue to teach around the world. What you and Todd are saying will and have no affect on anything accept making you feel good amongst yourselves in my humble opinion.

You don't fuck with a man's livelihood Richard.

BTW, private messages are private.

Richard King said:

Someone brought it up and I gave them my opinion as you and the others did.

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Richard, This is simply not true. You brought it up and when myself and other told you it was inappropriate you continued to bring it up for the duration of the five day class.

Richard King said:

If anyone wants to look at that company look back at the past threads. Rockford IL Rebuilding class held at Bourne & Koch. You can Goodgle it too. I have taught 2 classes there now.

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If I was Bourne & Koch I don't think I'd be too happy having the name mentioned in your posts, especially as the threads you start or participate in seem to go down hill quickly.

I am a hobbyist, so my goals and motivations are different than a professional. That said, I have taken 3 classes. Why 3? The first one was enough to learn the very basics of scraping. I also met a great group of guys. After the class I came back and practiced a fair bit. I was able to get an angle plate square, perpendicular etc within a few tenths. That still amazes me. It took a lot of time however, with many false starts. I think many people don't appreciate the amount of time it takes to become proficient. I am of average mechanical skills. I've seen guys in the class pick this up much faster than I did, and a few that were slower. For everyone though, it does take commitment. I thought the first class was money well spent.

The second class was more focused on advanced scraping and alignment. I brought my Bridgeport, already torn down. Part of the draw for the second class was to meet with like-minded people; some returnees, some new. It was very much a working vacation. I didn't get as far as I hoped in the second class. Much of that was lack of preparation on my own part. I had a half scraped in 36" beveled straight edge that still needed a lot of work. Rich helped out where he could, but he had 9 other students to think about too.

Looking back I should have pre-scraped the machine so that I could have focused 100% on final fit up. I would advise people interested in a more advanced class to have a written plan. Go over the plan with Rich well before the class. I should have started that at least a couple months before the class. By the end of the class I was disappointed that I hadn't accomplished more, but much of that was because of lack of planning on my part. I really enjoyed the class. Again, money well spent.

Enter the 3rd class. Two weeks before the class I ended up with a Monarch 10EE of unknown condition. No time for planning At this point the class was more about spending time with guys with similar interests and learning from each other. I spent the first two days working with the host Steve Watkins getting the Beast planner setup for planning classmates' straight edges, mill tables etc. Rich did give me a small break on price, though not for the two days. For this class half of what I learned came from other students as we helped each other. I am fine with that. I wish Rich has had more time to spend with me going over my Monarch. Its hard when you have a class of 10 students, all wanting time. Also, the needs of the advanced students are different than the beginners. For the intro class Rich can go from student to student spending just a couple minutes with each one. After Rich helps a student, they can go off and scrape a few more cycles until they need his attention again. For the advanced students I think more time is required. A couple minutes is not enough. It requires more time to actually work together on the project.

I think prospective students should do the following to get the most out of the class:

- At least several months before the class, acquire a hand scraper and a sharpener. I started diamond paste and a chunk of aluminum milled at 7 degrees for sharpening a purchased scraper. I didn't start soon enough.

- Watch lots of videos and start practicing. Post you results and questions on PM.

- Start on something you don't care about and not afraid to make mistakes on. Any old chunk of decent cast iron.

- Attempt something with multiple surfaces, such as an angle plate.

- Show up at the class with something real to scrape. Working on Rich's coupons is fine, but you won't leave the class with something in hand. If you can spend no more than a day on the coupons in class, then you'll be in good shape.

- Realize that the cost of the class is only part of this. If you are serious you will end up spending at least that much on tools etc:
Straight edge - $300 ~ $600+
Biax scaper - $800 used
Diamond sharpener - $200 ~ $600
Surface plate(s) - $100 ~ $1000
roller, ink etc ~ $100
Hours practicing $$$

Sorry for the long post. In general I think Rich's classes are worth the money. To get the most out of it requires a fair bit of prep work on the student's part. Have the right expectations going into the class and I think you will enjoy it and get you're money's worth.

Andy

Wow, I'm an occasional reader of this forum. Never had a reason or cause to post. First time for everything. I've held a theory that most of our society never really matures beyond eighth grade, here is further evidence!

I have taken Richards course and am happy to comment! Prior to his training I purchased Connelly's book and searched the net high and low for help with the scraping and machine tool rebuilding process. Truth is there isn't much out there for someone unless you are being trained by your employer?!!

I am not a machinist, I am a serious home guy who has a medical degree and does some significant research in both veterinary and human medicine. I have a fairly complete shop and use it for both personal and professional work.

Now back to your concerns over learning scraping for machine tool alignment in a 40 hr course. The harsh truth in life is that your personal learning is your responsibility!! Not your instructors... I have taught at both the undergraduate and graduate levels so I know a thing or two about both teaching and learning. Richard is a very willing and knowledgeable teacher. Yes he is human and has opinions, gets grumpy, is pulled many directions when teaching....but he is a genuine person.

If you didn't get what you wanted from your investment, you should have asked for a refund or much more importantly ask for more training from Richard. What? Do you think he doesn't know his stuff? Are you afraid to ask for help or more information in front of others?? Don't be such a P...y and post your frustrations on a board when you are not getting what you want!!!

AS FOR my experience, I learned a ton from Richard. Mostly I learned my limits and I'm still learning. My limits are being push further out. .

YES YOU CAN LEARN all YOU want to know, as Richard knows a lot!! But each mix of people in a group can make the experience tough on everyone. So you ask for what you want, you don't whine about it later. I consider myself an advanced scraper, have the projects to prove it. I am still a novice machine tool rebuilder. I'm deep in Monarch 10ee rebuild and Richard has helped way beyond the class. He has always been willing to help anyone who reaches out.

The question as to what can be learned from any course is about the students prior experience, current knowledge and skills, as well as their willingness to push for my help or training. There is no evidence to support that Richard doesn't know his stuff and there is plenty of folks that will tell you how helpful he is.....

The question isn't can someone learn scrape for machine tool alignment/rebuilding from a forty hour course.! The question is "is that someone at a place in their life where they are ready to learn what is necessary to rebuild a given machine"? You can't learn every neuro-surgical procedure in a forty hour course, but you sure as hell can learn one... And yes you can learn it in a forty hour course from Richard if YOU are ready!!! But there are thousands of tool configurations and you will have to continue to learn....

You guys grow up and and get real!!! Take responsibility for your own shit and stop whining. Richard will give you everything you want and more from one of his courses as long as you and he agree on what you want to take away!!!!

Lkbdvm said:

The question isn't can someone learn scrape for machine tool alignment/rebuilding from a forty hour course.!

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Go back and read the title of this thread, that's exactly what the question is.

Lkbdvm said:

Wow, I'm an occasional reader of this forum. Never had a reason or cause to post. First time for everything. I've held a theory that most of our society never really matures beyond eighth grade, here is further evidence!

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Excellent first post.

I'm reluctant to get involved in testicle waving of this sort, but I was invited so here goes.

I arrived at the course in Jamie's shop in PA having never scraped. I watched a demo for about 20 minutes one day at the Cabin Fever Show, that's as close as I got. I have no aspiration to fix anyone else's machines, but I learned long ago that unless I wanted to be the guy that stayed behind the desk I needed to know how to fix my own.

I was not a great student. In fact, at the end of the first day I went back to the hotel incredibly frustrated and about 85% convinced that I'd finally found something that my hands couldn't learn how to do, thinking this was going to be a wasted weekend. Saturday morning, Richard encouraged me to put down the old Anderson scraper I'd brought with me and handed me his Dapra. Bam, the light went on and I was scraping! I spent Saturday trying to make up for lost time, madly scraping and trying to watch everything else that was going on in the shop, as he explained other student's projects,, power scraping, alignment of all of Jamie's machines and some brought in machine castings, an hour or more with the King Way tool, and not lose my place on the coupons. By sunday I was getting it, had done some power scraping for the first time and started work on the 18" lathe compound I brought along, which was out of alignment in every direction a compound can be out(more than I believed possible).

Richard was very patient and good humored in the class, more patient than I could ever be with 10 people pulling at my sleeve, generous with his attention and time and never slacked off.

Even with a somewhat "lost" first day, I learned plenty. I learned enough to have confidence to go forward and learn more, and I understood alignment basics. Richard offered to continue another day or two with a few of us, and i wanted to but I was exhausted and needed to get back to business.

A few months later I discovered I needed to replace the Z ballscrew in a Deckel mill I purchased. While doing that I discovered a few wear issues and decided "While we're at it" they needed to be addressed. I had not touched scraping since the class, but I had bought some equipment. I scraped a small angle plate just to refresh and build up some confidence and dove in. The Moglice in the Z was worn from the weight of the cantilevered table hanging on it. I had to scrape on that while the Z casting was hanging on chain hoists and still connected to the machine, no way to machine it. I just tried to get it square and flat then duplicate Deckel's pocketing for oil retention.





The Z rear retainers were small enough to put in a machine so they were cut parallel to start then scraped. I tried scraping the hard steel to get them perfectly flat and gave up and just ground them then scraped the moglice. The retainers were shimmed to get .0004 clearance over the ways for oil clearance per Deckel for Vactra 4 oil. Same with the gibs, except the gibs could be adjusted once the cross way was reinstalled..



I'm not showing off finished scraping here, just the configurations of the parts in progress.

After we reassembled the Z and put the table back on and started checking things, we found the Y ram was looser at the front than the rear which screwed up the squareness of the machine. So we pulled the Y gib out. The opposite side of the ram seemed to still be Ok, we just needed to remachine the gib and scrape it. Once that was done and reinstalled and adjusted to .0004 clearance the machine was as square as my granite square is, at least between X and Y, we found no movement on a .0001 indicator over the length of the square



Continued - More pictures

Did you even understand the point of my post?? I have bad news for you.... where ever you go there you are..... All the best in your endeavors, deeply hoping you aren't one of the ones I'm already supporting thru my generous goverment contributions every April.

Never took Richard's class.
Can you learn it in 40 hours... might depend on how good of a student you are, I would hope so.
Lots of different machines out there. Some get anal about things that do not affect function, others miss things that do count.
40 hours should get you started well if you engage your brain and think about the interactions of a machine design and how you can check your results.
Alignment and the 6 degrees of freedom are a step above scarping.
Making a flat slideway and nailing a sub-micron 8 axis cnc machine tool are the same but different.

With 40 years of doing it, yes sometimes you think you have trained a person, see the results and have to ask them "WTF were you thinking".
Sometimes if experienced we take things for granted as common sense to us while these things are not so obvious to those learning.
Hence the "grumpy and intolerant old machinist" syndrome.
Bob