What's new
What's new

Correcting Spindle Tool Socket on HBM.

inwoodcutter

Cast Iron
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Tell City, Indiana
We have a problem with the Morse 5 socket on out Gilbert boring mill. Tools are not seating properly. The plan is to ream it to get a better contact area. My question is how do maintain good alignment of the reamer? The thought is to use a tailstock for a dividing head setup on the table to hold the back end of the reamer steady. But how do I indicate the center of the tailstock to the spindle? The best I can figure is to mount an indicator to the spindle and sweep around the center point. Would I be missing anything if I did that? Are there other considerations?

To make matters worse the Morse 5 reamer we have bottoms out in the socket. So either we cut the reamer down or bore out the socket more.

Dan
 

Attachments

  • 20170801_174702.jpg
    20170801_174702.jpg
    92.3 KB · Views: 398
I think you would be much better served to pull the spindle and have it trued up on an ID grinder, or possibly ground in place.
 
We have a problem with the Morse 5 socket on out Gilbert boring mill. Tools are not seating properly. The plan is to ream it to get a better contact area. My question is how do maintain good alignment of the reamer? The thought is to use a tailstock for a dividing head setup on the table to hold the back end of the reamer steady. But how do I indicate the center of the tailstock to the spindle? The best I can figure is to mount an indicator to the spindle and sweep around the center point. Would I be missing anything if I did that? Are there other considerations?

To make matters worse the Morse 5 reamer we have bottoms out in the socket. So either we cut the reamer down or bore out the socket more.

Dan

What you might be missing in mounting an indicator in the spindle is indicator droop. Forrest Addy has talked about how to check the sag and compensate if necessary.
 
We have a problem with the Morse 5 socket on out Gilbert boring mill. Tools are not seating properly. The plan is to ream it to get a better contact area. My question is how do maintain good alignment of the reamer? The thought is to use a tailstock for a dividing head setup on the table to hold the back end of the reamer steady. But how do I indicate the center of the tailstock to the spindle? The best I can figure is to mount an indicator to the spindle and sweep around the center point. Would I be missing anything if I did that? Are there other considerations?

To make matters worse the Morse 5 reamer we have bottoms out in the socket. So either we cut the reamer down or bore out the socket more.

Dan

That reamer should not be used for much more than removing a burr, and even that carefully and by hand.

It also should not be bottoming.

My 5 MT reamer does not, and the AB5/S Drillpress - unlike lighter DP's - has much the same arrangement of locking-wedge slot plus ejector-drift slot as the photo of your mill's spindle shows.

Edges of either are among "the usual suspects" for heavy burrs raised by Bubba, his wedge or drift, and the wrong BFH for the job.

If you do not already have such, there are gentler release tools available than the loose drifts, cheaply so, and more than worth having.

Sounds like you need to get something nano-camera-ish at that bore to see what the inside and arse-deep end of it is hiding from you before you do anything drastic.

Ex: Happens I have a few 5 MT with no tang. Threads for drawbars I do NOT have, rather.

Sooo I also have separate tangs that thread INTO those holders. IF I were to have used such, not Loctited, was running an op in reverse.. and backed-out the 5 MT, such that the tang adaptor was left in the spindle? It could prevent my 5 MT reamer seating.

:)

Unless it is nothing more exotic than some tramp metal munged in, grinding suggestion seconded.

Not an operation needed but once in scores of years, so best to insure it is done as properly as can be.

Read: "get an experienced and well-equipped specialist" if you suspect you have to grind at all. Expect that individual to advise how best to proceed after an assessment has been made.
 
Last edited:
A Gilbert HBM is a pretty good machine. Chances are the taper is pretty hard. A reamer may not make much impression on the taper. I've re-ground a few damaged spindle tapers and found you have to do it with a light touch.

Got access to a tool post grinder with an internal spindle and a selection of arbors? I suggest you rob a compound from a lathe in pretty good shape, mount it on the table, establish the taper half angle with a sine bar or by scanning the spindle taper, mount the tool post grinder on the compound, diddle, tweak, and adjust, then grind the spindle taper.

Run the spindle under power (120 RPM?) with the clamp on. Mount a 0.0001" graduated indicator to register table movement (grinding infeed) so you can see it from the operator station. Set a stop so you don't over-travel the compound slide. This is a limber set-up and the wheel area is small - you will have to dress the wheel frequently to ensure it cuts freely. Otherwise the wheel will dull and rub removing no material until you dial in enough infeed to deflect the set-up which may take a sudden chew from the taper. Sharp wheel = free cutting. Gazed wheel = unpredictable results.

Barely clean up the taper. Do not go all the way to bright metal. Every 0.001 you take out of the taper sinks the tool 0.019" deeper in the socket. It won't take many thousandths off the taper to shoulder the driving tang radius against the back of the socket.

Gage often, Dress the wheel frequently!!! Dress the wheel with a sharp diamond!!! Control the dust.
 
Last edited:
Good. Thanks for the replys, all.

That's exactly why I posted this, so I wouldn't do something asinine. It sounds like the draw key area could be my issue. I'll have to go investigate more. I can tell you the exterior of the spindle has some brusing from previous operators banging on the sucker around the key hole. I've seen the draw keys that use a wedge & screw to work. Will definitely be getting one of those.

If I can't get it corrected with some gentle hand ream turning or a few spot burr removals I'll go down the TP grinder route. The compound off the Lodge & Shipley or one of the Pacemakers should be more than sufficient. If I get to that point I may have a few more questions.

We just got this machine earlier this summer. We're getting it ready for the first job we have for it.

Dan
 
You figure on using draw keys on a regular basis? Lots of line boring and corncob milling? Listen up.

Draw keys can be a huge PITA. You need one for each tooling item because they each engage the taper at slightly different depths. You only got a thousandth or two between too tight and too loose. We must have had a hundred keys scattered around our HMB section, all made in a hurry. If you wanted to line bore a pump you had to dig through a dozen drawers and cabinets to find the one that fit that particular bar in that particular machine. Many talented people tried to impose order, stencil numbers, etc but chaos soon returned. If the needed key was in use elsewhere, somebody modified another.

The only solution was a graduated set of draw keys for each machine. Did I mention what a huge PITA the whole draw key problem was? HUGE!! It went on for generations before me and for the 18 years of my tenure and is probably going on right now.

Anyway, make a set of HT steel draw keys, one for each tooling item on hand plus a dozen extra with finishing allowance for future use. Start a policy where each draw key is paired with the tool it's fitted to and never separated. A little tradition now can save hundreds of future hours scrounging or remaking draw keys.
 
A Gilbert HBM is a pretty good machine. Chances are the taper is pretty hard. A reamer may not make much impression on the taper. I've re-ground a few damaged spindle tapers and found you have to do it with a light touch.

Got access to a tool post grinder with an internal spindle and a selection of arbors? I suggest you rob a compound from a lathe in pretty good shape, mount it on the table, establish the taper half angle with a sine bar or by scanning the spindle taper, mount the tool post grinder on the compound, diddle, tweak, and adjust, then grind the spindle taper.

Run the spindle under power (120 RPM?) with the clamp on. Mount a 0.0001" graduated indicator to register table movement (grinding infeed) so you can see it from the operator station. Set a stop so you don't over-travel the compound slide. This is a limber set-up and the wheel area is small - you will have to dress the wheel frequently to ensure it cuts freely. Otherwise the wheel will dull and rub removing no material until you dial in enough infeed to deflect the set-up which may take a sudden chew from the taper. Sharp wheel = free cutting. Gazed wheel = unpredictable results.

Barely clean up the taper. Do not go all the way to bright metal. Every 0.001 you take out of the taper sinks the tool 0.019" deeper in the socket. It won't take many thousandths off the taper to shoulder the driving tang radius against the back of the socket.

Gage often, Dress the wheel frequently!!! Dress the wheel with a sharp diamond!!! Control the dust.


I've never done this with a Morse taper but I've followed this procedure several times on 50's Int taper spindles. Take your time and it's do-able.

Regards Tyrone.
 
You figure on using draw keys on a regular basis? Lots of line boring and corncob milling? Listen up.

Draw keys can be a huge PITA. You need one for each tooling item because they each engage the taper at slightly different depths. You only got a thousandth or two between too tight and too loose. We must have had a hundred keys scattered around our HMB section, all made in a hurry. If you wanted to line bore a pump you had to dig through a dozen drawers and cabinets to find the one that fit that particular bar in that particular machine. Many talented people tried to impose order, stencil numbers, etc but chaos soon returned. If the needed key was in use elsewhere, somebody modified another.

The only solution was a graduated set of draw keys for each machine. Did I mention what a huge PITA the whole draw key problem was? HUGE!! It went on for generations before me and for the 18 years of my tenure and is probably going on right now.

Anyway, make a set of HT steel draw keys, one for each tooling item on hand plus a dozen extra with finishing allowance for future use. Start a policy where each draw key is paired with the tool it's fitted to and never separated. A little tradition now can save hundreds of future hours scrounging or remaking draw keys.

We used adjustable draw keys made by an Italian tooling company called " Bakuer " . We rarely had problems- apart from when the operator fitted the key in the wrong way around !

Regards Tyrone.
 
We used adjustable draw keys made by an Italian tooling company called " Bakuer " . We rarely had problems- apart from when the operator fitted the key in the wrong way around !

Regards Tyrone.

In some ways we were a "mushroom shop" kept pretty much in the dark. It was not only hard for sales people and ideas to percolate through the heavy security but the management and support people were incurious. They had access to the trade journals but seldom read them. I cooked up n adjustable draw key that was real simple. It had little ledges that hooked on the champhers and angle set screws that forces the two halves apart. It didn't seat the taper as solidly and a fitted wedge but it fit everything in its range. Marshal Whitlege wouldn't use it and spoke against it. Since his word was prophetic the only one used it was me. Discouraging.


I'd like to see an image of that Italian draw key. I did a quick Google under "Bauker" and came up with a power tool outfit.
 
In some ways we were a "mushroom shop" kept pretty much in the dark. It was not only hard for sales people and ideas to percolate through the heavy security but the management and support people were incurious. They had access to the trade journals but seldom read them. I cooked up n adjustable draw key that was real simple. It had little ledges that hooked on the champhers and angle set screws that forces the two halves apart. It didn't seat the taper as solidly and a fitted wedge but it fit everything in its range. Marshal Whitlege wouldn't use it and spoke against it. Since his word was prophetic the only one used it was me. Discouraging.


I'd like to see an image of that Italian draw key. I did a quick Google under "Bauker" and came up with a power tool outfit.

I can't help you with images Forest but I can describe the keys. They looked exactly like a conventional draw key only they were parallel and had a grub screw in one end. You wound in the grub screw which propelled a tongue out of the side of the draw key by means of a double wedge system inside the key.

The tongue bore against the inside of whatever tool shank you fitted into the spindle nose. They worked extremely well and I don't recall them ever coming loose in operation.

As I said earlier the only snag was they could be fitted in the wrong way around by careless operators and the tongue would get lodged. The only cure was remove the spindle and up end it to allow gravity to be your friend.

I suppose demand for these tools isn't what it used to be and " Bakuer " no longer supply them.

Regards Tyrone.
 
20170805_183421.jpg20170805_183436.jpg

Here are some close ups of the spindle. Neal and I tried several tools in it. I'm thinking he wasn't getting them seated real well when he had the tool pull out. The bluing showed we were getting good contact all the way around. Going to knock down the burrs visible on the very end. We'll try to run the spindle again but make sure the tools are seated. The job waiting to go on has some simple drilling, boring and milling. Should give us a good indication on how the spindle really is.
 
I ran the same machine you have when I started my apprenticeship. Nice machine, don't loose the traverse handle. And don't forget to remove it when you hit the rapid handle.

Our spindle was bad when we got the machine. My boss did the job himself with what he had laying around. If you are feeling creative you can do the job yourself.
It would be hard to mess it up worse than it is.

Try imagine a tool post grinder mounted to the mag chuck on a small surface grinder mounted to a rotary table that was strapped to the boring mills table.
I am not kidding!

We had a nice grinder with an ID spindle for the grinding. The boss did separate the upper end of the grinder from its sheet metal base. That gave him a nice lever slide for the grinder traverse. We had a 24" rotary table that we mounted the grinder to. It took a few passes to dial in the angle with the rotary table. We bought a new toolholder to check the spindle with blueing. There was just a bit of chatter but not much. I never had a tool fall out.

We did use a draw key for boring and milling. We had one key that we bought new from G&L. Some holders did have different retention slot positions. We simply tig welded small shims into each holder. I think it would be crazy to buy multiple keys.

The shop was in Fond du Lac so naturally we made a few things for G&L. I thought that was cool as a 16 year old kid. I leaned a lot on that machine we would try nearly anything once.

Sadly the machine was scrapped a few years ago for a newer machine. The new pendent control machine was not as user friendly as the old Gilbert, it was missed.
 
In some ways we were a "mushroom shop" kept pretty much in the dark. It was not only hard for sales people and ideas to percolate through the heavy security but the management and support people were incurious. They had access to the trade journals but seldom read them. I cooked up n adjustable draw key that was real simple. It had little ledges that hooked on the champhers and angle set screws that forces the two halves apart. It didn't seat the taper as solidly and a fitted wedge but it fit everything in its range. Marshal Whitlege wouldn't use it and spoke against it. Since his word was prophetic the only one used it was me. Discouraging.


I'd like to see an image of that Italian draw key. I did a quick Google under "Bauker" and came up with a power tool outfit.

I hope this helps, take from a previous thread from 2014
G&L draw key.jpg
 
Thanks for adding that drawing to this discussion.

We did just clean the socket and get rid of a couple of burrs, then ran the job that was waiting. It bored the most beautiful IDs a man could want. My brother is really liking this machine. We'll probably grind the socket soon just because of all the visible wear and potential to trap dirt in it. First off we have to find a toolpost grinder with ID spindle.
 








 
Back
Top