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Cost and sources for scraping a cross-slide and compound?

CountryBoy19

Stainless
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Location
Bedford, IN
Ok, after buying/watching Richards video over a year ago, buying a few scraping supplies, and having my surface plate lapped to AA standard, I've decided that I'm never going to get enough time to actually learn to scrape well enough to scrape my compound, saddle, and cross-slide on my Leblond.

I fully realize that this isn't going to be cheap, but I am on a budget. If I can provide measurements on how square the cross-slide is to the bed-ways, is it possible to send the saddle, cross-slide, and compound off to have scraped? If so, where to send it and how much will it cost?

FWIW, they aren't terribly worn, they are galled from lack of lubrication. As a matter of fact, the compound still shows signs of what I assume to be the original scraping, but it has galling/scoring. In some places the scoring is severe enough that it will impede proper fluid film retention so I would like to get it corrected. The underside of the saddle is not galled, but does have some wear from riding on the hardened bed ways; that would probably just need scraped down to get proper PPI and center "relief" (there is only about 20% non-bearing surface remaining in the center).

Any thoughts/advice/recommendations? I would rather send them to a member but I'm open to options. Timeline isn't super critical, maybe 7 months- 1 year turn-around?
 
Many times I used to just scrape the saddle cross-slide ways, scrape cross-slide and compound at the shop after taking it off the machine in the customers shop so it is possible.

It would help to have the saddle top ground or cut with a dovetail cutter before scraping it. Lance one of the students just had a professional rebuilder grind his Monarch EE bed, cross-slide and they put Turcite on the bottom of saddle and supposedly scraped to the bed. They did a lousy job but he could let you know what that cost him. I would estimate after grinding the saddle top on a way grinder and grinding cross-slide and compound top it would take 25 hours to 35 hours plus the grinding costs of approx. 800.00 to $1000.00.

Depending on how much was removed you may have to put Turcite on the short ways and for sure on the gibs. Most pro's charge $100.00 per hour. You might find someone to do it cheaper. I know a few who would do it up here by me. I also tell customers giving a up front price is like looking into a crystal ball. I used to charge it by the hour and charged what it took, so no one got took. Lets see if anyone else will do it for you.

Most of all the good rebuilders are swamped. How big is your shop? Maybe you could host a class there and we could do the machine as a project? I was planning on taking September off, but could do one then. Rich
 
What size LeBlond? I'm interested in the job, and I've scraped a few lathe cross slides, including a LeBlond. You're not that far from me, relatively speaking.

I don't think there is an issue checking the square with just the saddle, but scraping the bottom ways would need to be done with the bed ways as a master.

Does it have removable hard ways? Are you going to be grinding them?
 
Ok, after buying/watching Richards video over a year ago, buying a few scraping supplies, and having my surface plate lapped to AA standard, I've decided that I'm never going to get enough time to actually learn to scrape well enough to scrape my compound, saddle, and cross-slide on my Leblond.

I fully realize that this isn't going to be cheap, but I am on a budget. If I can provide measurements on how square the cross-slide is to the bed-ways, is it possible to send the saddle, cross-slide, and compound off to have scraped? If so, where to send it and how much will it cost?

FWIW, they aren't terribly worn, they are galled from lack of lubrication. As a matter of fact, the compound still shows signs of what I assume to be the original scraping, but it has galling/scoring. In some places the scoring is severe enough that it will impede proper fluid film retention so I would like to get it corrected. The underside of the saddle is not galled, but does have some wear from riding on the hardened bed ways; that would probably just need scraped down to get proper PPI and center "relief" (there is only about 20% non-bearing surface remaining in the center).

Any thoughts/advice/recommendations? I would rather send them to a member but I'm open to options. Timeline isn't super critical, maybe 7 months- 1 year turn-around?

You were already "there"...! Just have at it! You already know how. Short of that or taking ewlsey up on his offer, you can check with Cash. He ground my bed for me and has that awesome way grinder. And... they're always scraping some machine or another, over there. Why not just have it all sent to him? You won't get much better...
 
I just got a job doing some training on putting some Rulon on a CNC lathe in Indy on the 12th of June. Driving there from John Saunders in Zanesville OH over the weekend of June 10. I see your not to far out of the way.

I could stop by and teach you one on one how to scrape on Saturday the 10th and Give you some pointers on how to do it or advise you on how to have it rebuilt. If you have a set of 1 to 3" micrometers I could measure the bed wear. If the bed isn't worn I would leave it alone. Wes is right about the bolt on rails (ways) on newer LeBlonds. Many times I leave them on and grind them and tail stock ways at the same time. PM me if your interested in having me stop bye and give me your address and phone number.
Rich
 
How big is your shop? Maybe you could host a class there and we could do the machine as a project? I was planning on taking September off, but could do one then. Rich
I've considered having a class but there is just no way I'll be able to do it before winter. We just moved a few months ago, and thankfully I have a fairly nice, but small shop at the new place. Only catch is, there is no power in it yet. Now that we've gotten settled into the new house I'm starting to focus on the shop. Power company is coming out next week to look at it to see what it will take to get the power connection moved over from the old abandoned house on our property to the shop. From there I have to run conduit and wire everything up.

What size LeBlond? I'm interested in the job, and I've scraped a few lathe cross slides, including a LeBlond. You're not that far from me, relatively speaking.

I don't think there is an issue checking the square with just the saddle, but scraping the bottom ways would need to be done with the bed ways as a master.

Does it have removable hard ways? Are you going to be grinding them?
It's a 15" Round-head dual-drive (saddle is identical to 15" round-head regals but the apron is slightly different). I will not be scraping the bed ways. The lathe is 78" between centers, which means almost 10' of bed ways, and from what I can tell they are still quite good. I've measured them 3 different ways and come up with a fairly consistent wear of .0012-.0014" from the tailstock end to the worst part near the chuck. Like I said, it's not overly worn, just abused. The lack of lubrication meant hardened ways on cast-iron saddle caused excessive wear, and anything that was cast-iron on cast-iron galled. After soaking for a week I still had to use a mallet to tapped the compound apart, it was seized with dried oil and grime.

That being said, Richard and Zahnrad have a way of reinvigorating a guy... I'm going to ponder hosting a class sometime in the future. It was something I had considered before but never had the right place to do it. Now that I have a new shop it's a possibility but I have to get the shop done first.

I just got a job doing some training on putting some Rulon on a CNC lathe in Indy on the 12th of June. Driving there from John Saunders in Zanesville OH over the weekend of June 10. I see your not to far out of the way.

I could stop by and teach you one on one how to scrape on Saturday the 10th and Give you some pointers on how to do it or advise you on how to have it rebuilt. If you have a set of 1 to 3" micrometers I could measure the bed wear. If the bed isn't worn I would leave it alone. Wes is right about the bolt on rails (ways) on newer LeBlonds. Many times I leave them on and grind them and tail stock ways at the same time. PM me if your interested in having me stop bye and give me your address and phone number.
Rich
Rich, I'm pleased at your offer to do this, but I'm just not sure of the practicality of it for you, and me. I would have to quickly gather up and/or order the rest of my scraping supplies (unless you're offering to use your supplies for any demonstration) and "not too far from Indy" is a relative term. I'm about 1:45 south of Indy, out in the hills and hollars. That being said, the added benefit would be that you can look over my shop (it is a mess right now) to judge it's suitability for a class. If driving that distance isn't a problem for you I'll check with my schedule planner (wife) to make sure we don't have any plans already.

Oh, one other point, if we do host a class at my place it may be best to wait until 2018 for a class for convenience of travels; the main route from Indy to my place is being turned into I-69 so it's undergoing massive construction. The next leg isn't slated to be complete until May 2018; it's a mess.
 
I will have my tools with me hand and power scrapers. If you can stretch a extension cord to the new shop that should work. Have a good light and outlet. I won't be able to do much in a day, but I would rather do that then sit in a hotel room watching TV. I'll have my cast iron practice bars, some with Rulon glued to it.

I agree if it is only worn .0014 that's good and not need to grind the bed. As I write I am thinking you could measure the TS ways off them too. We could take some pictures and put them here too.

Down at Keith Ruckers shop he measured the bed of his Monarch and also decided not to get his bed ground as it was close too. He figured he could do the machining he needed to do on ways only worn that much. He did have to mill off some material off his saddle bottom so we could glue on the Rulon. He ordered some and the glue and overnighted it in so I could show him how too do it. I will have some Rulon .030" with me too.

I looked and your 1 1/2 hour from Indy, so it's not to far out of the way. Ask the boss and see if it's OK.

I could spend a night at a local motel too and so something Sunday too for a few hours before driving up to Indy.

It could be one of those pay forward deals.. I maybe a bit tired after teaching a 5 day class, so I would be in slow motion..lol.

Take a look in this tread. http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...lding-scraping-class-may-21-25-2017-a-335234/

Pictures show Keith putting Rulon on his saddle. Rich
 
I will have my tools with me hand and power scrapers. If you can stretch a extension cord to the new shop that should work. Have a good light and outlet. I won't be able to do much in a day, but I would rather do that then sit in a hotel room watching TV. I'll have my cast iron practice bars, some with Rulon glued to it.

I agree if it is only worn .0014 that's good and not need to grind the bed. As I write I am thinking you could measure the TS ways off them too. We could take some pictures and put them here too.

Down at Keith Ruckers shop he measured the bed of his Monarch and also decided not to get his bed ground as it was close too. He figured he could do the machining he needed to do on ways only worn that much. He did have to mill off some material off his saddle bottom so we could glue on the Rulon. He ordered some and the glue and overnighted it in so I could show him how too do it. I will have some Rulon .030" with me too.

I looked and your 1 1/2 hour from Indy, so it's not to far out of the way. Ask the boss and see if it's OK.

I could spend a night at a local motel too and so something Sunday too for a few hours before driving up to Indy.

It could be one of those pay forward deals.. I maybe a bit tired after teaching a 5 day class, so I would be in slow motion..lol.

Take a look in this tread. http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...lding-scraping-class-may-21-25-2017-a-335234/

Pictures show Keith putting Rulon on his saddle. Rich
Rich, this is very generous!!! I'm going to take you up on this offer; if you're not opposed to it, I have a guest room that is in a separate part of the house you could stay in as well. I'll also feed you!!! I'll give you a call sometime this week to figure out the details.

With no power to the shop I'm very limited in what I can do for now. I can fire up the generator and run my mill I think, but I've never tried it on the genny. I do have an extension cord already run to the shop that I've been running lights on so that's not a problem. If the weather is particularly warm we can always move up to the attached garage which should remain a bit cooler (partially below ground with a conditioned room above it).

If you think these should be ground before scraping then I need to get on the ball quick. Cash, if needed could you turn these around quickly and get them back to me by the 10th. The cross-slide and compound can be shipped fairly easily. The saddle is quite a bit heavier and may have to go freight? Maybe start with just the compound so Rich can show me some techniques etc and then I can have the rest ground with a more friendly time-frame?

Now that I think of it, I may have posted some pictures of it last year before I left to work overseas again.
 
DSCN0034.jpg
I do have 1 picture of the galling on the compound. Should this be sent off to be ground? The cross-slide is equally bad with a little more actual wear thrown on top.
 
I just bought my ticket and reserved my rental car so I am coming :-) hat compound doesn't look real bad on the small side. I am not exactly sure how Cash does it, but I would hope he has a smaller grinder then the ones he shows he rebuild as firing up one of those big hunkers is expensive. That compound could be ground on a smaller machine 12 x 24" or smaller can't it? The saddle would need it though if your going to have him grind the top of the saddle. But as I said before without seeing it, it's like looking into a crystal ball for us. If I were you scrape off the paint Take some pictures tonight of both sides of the saddle and cross-slide. Is there a ridge or step under the V way of the saddle? Measure it and that could help you decide if you should Turcite the bottom. It might be like Keith's, his ridge I think was .020" and that's why he set the saddle on his mill and we machined off the ways to accomm0date the .047" thick material. There is some planning to do before hand and just not send it out and they do it. You say it's a round head lathe. That's an old one and the ways don't bolt on??? I think those old ones were like that. Maybe take a picture of that too, or look for the old thread and link it here. Rich
 
I just bought my ticket and reserved my rental car so I am coming :-) hat compound doesn't look real bad on the small side. I am not exactly sure how Cash does it, but I would hope he has a smaller grinder then the ones he shows he rebuild as firing up one of those big hunkers is expensive. That compound could be ground on a smaller machine 12 x 24" or smaller can't it? The saddle would need it though if your going to have him grind the top of the saddle. But as I said before without seeing it, it's like looking into a crystal ball for us. If I were you scrape off the paint Take some pictures tonight of both sides of the saddle and cross-slide. Is there a ridge or step under the V way of the saddle? Measure it and that could help you decide if you should Turcite the bottom. It might be like Keith's, his ridge I think was .020" and that's why he set the saddle on his mill and we machined off the ways to accomm0date the .047" thick material. There is some planning to do before hand and just not send it out and they do it. You say it's a round head lathe. That's an old one and the ways don't bolt on??? I think those old ones were like that. Maybe take a picture of that too, or look for the old thread and link it here. Rich
Sorry to have left off info, the ways do bolt on. They are the bolt on, hardened steel ways. I think that's the only reason the ways/saddle didn't gall from lack of lube (dissimilar metals, with 1 being hard enough to not gall).

There is no discernible ridge on any of the surfaces; at least none that can be discerned from the galling. By my estimate the deepest of the galling doesn't exceed .020". I'm not sure how to measure the depth of galling/scoring though. I will try to get some close-up photos. The parts are currently buried in a crate, underneath another crate from when I moved the shop. I'm going to have to guess which crate and unpack the crate sitting on top of it to get at the compound. I'll have to wait until the kids go to bed because my wife is currently ill. :) I was waiting to unpack the crates until I got the electrical run and shelves installed. Guess I'll have to fast-track that plan.
 
You said you have a Mill? Might be able to mill the saddle bottom like Keith did. Might as well not get in a rush and after I check it out then decide on what to do. Doesn't seem there is enough time to send it out especially with the holiday coming. I always scrape a part flat before sending it out to be ground. If it's burred, bent or has a twist in it and they mag it down and grind it will bend or twist back cockeyed. I'm sure Cash flattens it first but I would bet he would want to get paid to do that. :-) Rich
 
You said you have a Mill? Might be able to mill the saddle bottom like Keith did. Might as well not get in a rush and after I check it out then decide on what to do. Doesn't seem there is enough time to send it out especially with the holiday coming. I always scrape a part flat before sending it out to be ground. If it's burred, bent or has a twist in it and they mag it down and grind it will bend or twist back cockeyed. I'm sure Cash flattens it first but I would bet he would want to get paid to do that. :-) Rich

Ah, good point!!

I managed to dig out the crate that has my lathe parts last night and get numerous good pictures so you can give me a better idea of what is going to be involved...
Saddle: I guess it has a bit more relief in the middle than I thought (at least on the front way)
20170524_223050.jpg
Top of saddle
20170524_223126.jpg
Top of saddle: key is a small screen-door key for size reference
20170524_223205.jpg
Bottom of cross-slide: on the far left edge there is a slight raised edge indicating heavier wear there; which isn't unusual for the short cross slide of a Leblond
20170524_223242.jpg
Bottom of cross-slide
20170524_223251.jpg
 
I have scraped groves out of ways on many lathes with worn ways like that and never ground them first. If you have access to a grinder to do the small parts it would save a lot of time. Even the top of the saddle could be scraped. The one score appears to be about .005 deep.

Check this thread out, its the Kalamazoo MI class we did back in 2014 and Matt Isserstedt wanted to scrape his lathe compound only by hand as he said he would never be able to afford a power scraper. He described it starting at post 39. So if you have time and it sounds as if you do, you can hand-scrape everything.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ing-class-kalamazoo-update-279958/index2.html

It would be simpler if it is ground first on a way grinder like Cash has. If your budget allowed you to do that, I would. If not you or we could scrape it. I wasn't going to pack a long dovetail straight-edge but will bring my HKA-18 and a prism straight edge. Do you have a granite plate? We could use that to scrape the compound base. I can show you how to scrape everything but there is no way we will be able to finish it in a day.

If it is worn .020" under the saddle I would recommend you mill off another .010 or so.(need to measure everything) and apply .030" Rulon if your only going to use it as a hobby machine, if your planning on doing production work on it I would say lets buy some .047 or .062" material.
Rich
 
I have scraped groves out of ways on many lathes with worn ways like that and never ground them first. If you have access to a grinder to do the small parts it would save a lot of time. Even the top of the saddle could be scraped. The one score appears to be about .005 deep.

Check this thread out, its the Kalamazoo MI class we did back in 2014 and Matt Isserstedt wanted to scrape his lathe compound only by hand as he said he would never be able to afford a power scraper. He described it starting at post 39. So if you have time and it sounds as if you do, you can hand-scrape everything.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ing-class-kalamazoo-update-279958/index2.html

It would be simpler if it is ground first on a way grinder like Cash has. If your budget allowed you to do that, I would. If not you or we could scrape it. I wasn't going to pack a long dovetail straight-edge but will bring my HKA-18 and a prism straight edge. Do you have a granite plate? We could use that to scrape the compound base. I can show you how to scrape everything but there is no way we will be able to finish it in a day.

If it is worn .020" under the saddle I would recommend you mill off another .010 or so.(need to measure everything) and apply .030" Rulon if your only going to use it as a hobby machine, if your planning on doing production work on it I would say lets buy some .047 or .062" material.
Rich
I have a 12 X 18 granite plate that hasn't been used since it was lapped to AA grade.

I will try to take some measurements on wear/taper on the cross-slide tonight if I can. I took measurements at one point but I've since forgotten the numbers. I realize we won't be able to scrape it all in a day. Just seeing it done, getting some tips and being able to ask questions will go a LONG way to help me with a solid foundation. You've been successful in renewing my interest in scraping!

I will see if I can find somebody local with a grinder to at least get the flat ways ground or I can mill them if it comes down to it.

If it's ok, I'll call you Friday on my day off to make sure I have everything ready to go for your visit.
 
I agree completely with what Rich is saying. yea, you can for sure send this to me and I can grind it and you will have a nice part to start with then for finish scraping.

If you have a mill you can do it yourself and then maybe just have a bit of extra scraping to do.

To grind the top of the saddle and compound, which I assume since this is what you want done since you took pics of it, would be about a day or so of grinding.

Could save many days or weeks of scraping.

But as Rich mentioned, is this a hobby machine or do you need it for production??

It gets expensive to send a machine to me if you are using it for hobby purpose. I have had guys do this and it makes their hobby machine pretty nice.

I as well am more than happy to work with the hobbyist. Many "big" shops will not.
 








 
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