Creepy ebay ad for Kingway like tool

jkopel · Jul 7, 2017

I am somewhat disturbed by this.

Master Level for Machine Rebuilding scraping King Way, Tumico, Way level | eBay

it seems like they are blatant about copying the Kingway design and selling it.
I don't know if any of the original patents still stand or if Rich owns any rights to the design.
But, Rich has been so generous with his knowledge that I hate to see his products ripped off.

ewlsey · Jul 7, 2017

How many do you really think they will sell? Surely anyone with a need for that tool has the knowledge to build their own.

JST · Jul 7, 2017

The listed price is laughable.

Patent for Kingway expired before some on here were born.

And, to be fair about it, the patent is granted to be exclusive for a while, and SPECIFICALLY to be public domain after that, so ANYONE can make, sell, use the thing without restriction. That's just how the deal is set up. If you accept the exclusive rights for the 17 (now 20) years, you should have made your money and probably are not even interested in the thing anymore, it may be totally obsolete..

That's the legal status.

Whether or not it might be a bit rude to do it, is another issue altogether. And, the pricing structure is yet another matter.

I would not consider doing that. For one thing, I just wouldn't jam it in Rich's face like that, it's not respectful. Totally outside any legal issues (there aren't any that I know of), if I DID make them, I'd send Rich a cut on it, as a sort of "finder's fee" if nothing else.

And, I really do not think here is much of a market. The devices are out there on the used market, at prices well below the likely costs of new manufacturing, and the costs would be fairly high when anyone who wants one can make one in a reasonably short time, and probably cost very little in their own time and shop rate. Certainly less than the yokels in the link seem to be charging. And they only seem to have one level vial..

TGTool · Jul 7, 2017

At that price all he has to sell is one and he's made more than selling 25 at a more reasonable price.

Knowing Rich though, I wouldn't buy from that seller at any price. If Rich is selling them, that's who gets the sale.

ewlsey · Jul 7, 2017

I believe Rich mentioned that he figured less than 2,000 King Way tools were ever made and sold. That's over 50+ years.

RC99 · Jul 7, 2017

I think there is one too many zeros on the price.

swatkins · Jul 8, 2017

I have the parts for one of those sitting in my tool cabinet. Just need to finish the casting and put it together. Richard left them with me two years ago.

Compared the pictures of the ebay one with the Original Kingway and I have found a few differences.

First off the ebay one has cut a few corners and left out one of the threaded holes in the cylinder. There is another in the original Kingway for a different angle setup. It's very hard to see the inside surface of the threaded holes but I think another critical element was left out. The one I have has flats milled around the hole on the inside of the cylinder. That is so the rod can be inserted into the cylinder, through the slot, and tighten up against a flat, not curved surface. When the rod is inserted in this manner the ground outer surface can be set in inverted V ways for checking those. Richard showed me how to use it in this manner and I thought it was a innovative way to make a multipurpose testing device.

The finish on the original is also much nicer, hardened and ground both inside and out. Looking at the inside edges of the cylinder slit shows, what looks like to me in the pictures, an uneven radius while the original Kingway has a ground radius on those edges.

Overall the Kingway Cylinder shows a high level of craftsmanship.

The brass(?) rod clamps do look nicer than the cast iron ones I have. I'm just not sure they are 3000.00 nicer.....

sable · Jul 8, 2017

I bet the fella selling these is a PM member, come on, own up you scoundrel!

Peter. · Jul 8, 2017

That's about half a kingway. Where are the bits that make it really useful like the indicator holders etc

iwananew10K · Jul 8, 2017

http://www.marenaind.com/_index.php

Pretty crappy IMO to use another mans brand to sell your wares...

mister honey · Jul 8, 2017

Peter. said:
That's about half a kingway.

A prince-way then???

Mike

lucky7 · Jul 8, 2017

Best solution imho is for Richard to sell kits with the easy to machine castings rough and the cylinders finish ground. Cuts out overpriced copy artists. Hope Richard is still looking in to PM site occasionaly...

Regards,
Lucky7

Warren · Jul 9, 2017

I am not sure about the trademark issue, but the patent has surely run out, anyone can make one if they like. Calling it a King-Way however is not cool in my book unless you bought the rights to a trademarked name. I do not know if there is a trademark or not.

It does not appear than other than dropping the name the ebay seller has not used King-Way in any other way, it is not stamped on his unit. He simply dropped a couple of company names in the description. Perhaps he should have said "like a King-Way". I'll leave that for others to debate.

If I can recall correctly, I'm my conversations with Richard King he said they stopped selling the King-Way alignment tool because he could not sell them for what they cost to build. Or something like that, perhaps the profit margin was not worth the effort, In any event they stopped selling them. I do not know what they sold for. Apparently they were expensive or at least more expensive than most people would like to pay for one.

However they are useful and I have been collecting some parts and will build one someday for my own use. (With Richards good graces I may add) Richard does not seem to mind if one builds one and actually encourages it. He even sold me some rough clamp castings. I also seem to remember Richard kicking the idea around about making plans and or kits available, but that my be wishful thinking on my part.

cheers,

Warren

lars66 · Jul 9, 2017

A Kingway sold on the machinery exchange auction here a short time ago for $800.00 if I remember right.

Spyderedge · Jul 11, 2017

If one sells for that price, I'm quitting my job and making them for a living.

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Conrad Hoffman · Jul 11, 2017

I don't see any problem. The text says "produced like..." and no claim is made that it's a genuine Kingway. The space in the titles is limited, so no big deal there either. That said, the quality doesn't look that great and anybody who needs one would likely make their own way cheaper and way better.

Paolo_MD · Jul 11, 2017

Spyderedge said:
If one sells for that price, I'm quitting my job and making them for a living.

If you have to start sourcing brand new precision vials, machining the castings, etc., I don't think you'd have much profit out of $800 sale price. And, even if you'd get a 20-30% margin, how many would you be able to sell?

Making one yourself with scrounged parts is a different business and significantly cheaper, yet another reason you wouldn't have too many buyers.

Paolo

Mark Rand · Jul 11, 2017

Just as a datum:- .1 thou/10" vials cost £20.16/$25.90 each. Not a lot. I've got some waiting for my surface grinder rebuild...

Paolo_MD · Jul 11, 2017

I've seen these "fatty naked vials" (they're ~5/8" in diameter and ~4" long). Possibly, if you bill your work at minimum wage, you'd be $30-40 ahead, compared to purchasing smaller, already encased levels.
But, on the other side you'll need to make larger castings or use more material to hold them on the instrument.

Paolo

swatkins · Jul 11, 2017

I know what it cost to make the cylinder part of the King Way. Not much money for anyone at 800.00.

Creepy ebay ad for Kingway like tool

Stainless

Diamond

Diamond

Titanium

Diamond

Diamond

Titanium

Titanium

Titanium

Diamond

Stainless

Titanium

Cast Iron

Aluminum

Titanium

Diamond

Stainless

Diamond

Stainless

Titanium

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