HBM leveling question

We purchased a Shibaura BT-10 b a while back. I've been trying to correctly install it without a manual(nearly impossible, I know). I've been using a high end spirit level to get the column and the Z axis slide ways level and straight but I'm unsure how to adjust the outrigger for proper contact on this machine. There are four circular flanges located on the outriggers. Two on each side. One on the front and one on the rear. Has anyone ever seen these before? I'm assuming this would be where I make this adjustment. Does anyone here have experience with this?

I'm guessing they are a roller bearing that is attached to a camshaft. Mount a mag base on the outrigger and an indicator on the saddle and loosen the hex bolt and use a pin spanner wrench or some drill rod slid into opposite holes and use a pry bar and try to turn the flange. See if the saddle moved up or down. That L shaped cover might be a wiper. Remove it and look in there, then you could also see if you can slide a feeler gage shim in and under the edge of saddle and see if its tight. In the close up picture looks like it's almost V shaped (male) and the roller could be V shaped (female) to track straight? If not it only rolls on top. You could also use the level instead of the mag base and indicator, but to trouble shoot what it is faster.
I will see if I can find you a manual...Rich

If you Google it, there are a few used machinery dealers who are selling that brand. You could call them and ask if they would copy the manuals.

Found this on Surplus record and you could again call the dealer and see if you can buy a copy of the manuals.
4" Shibaura, Horizontal Boring Mill, 53154 Boring Mills, Horizontal, Table Type - SurplusRecord.com

I also found this one and another on Ebay. It's a smaller machine, but they may have the same basic design.
Toshiba Shibaura BT-8B CR and SR, Milling Machine, Instructions and Parts Manual | eBay

Rich is correct, they are only cam follower bearings riding on those out rigger slides. The cam brings them up and down.

Each and every time I've levelled them. I wind them up and put them out of play. They shouldn't be playing with the machines structure at all. You should be able to shovel in feeler strip, under that out-rigger bearing and the way. Remove the wiper, if that's a problem. Make sure they aren't a fly in the ointment.

Level the machines core, 5 or 7 jacks with the table center balanced. Then shoot the table out left / right. It will sag each way. You mention high end level. Tweak the cams up until the saddle doesn't sag. I'll tell you right now, you want that saddle concave 0.05mm/m, A division on a rough level. So tweak those cams a division high, left and right. Each end will be high. Place a vice and a bit of work. Nirvana..

I'd assume with high end level of yours is better than 0.05mm /m. I live with 0.020/ m. You will see that as soon as the cam makes contact. The saddle will come up. I'd over cook it a division. Both left and right.

I can't add much to the other contributions. You're lucky it's actually a "wide bed" machine, " outriggers " are usually independent of the main bed. Levelling those up can be a ball ache, especially the ones with double outriggers on each side.

I must have gone to the same school as Machtool, another vote for one mark high on the level at either end of the cross travel ways. When the table plus the job gets down there the level will be fine.

How are you aligning the column ? British machines had two scraped pads in both planes on the back end of the bed where the column sits. You could level the bed were the column sits with those pads. I also had a box level that I placed on the column ways just to check out the column but the best test for the column alignment is a big square set in both planes on the table and a DTI on the front of the spindle frame, or facing slide if that machine has one. I had a good 4 ft one that I could borrow when I needed it.

I liked to set the column leaning slightly forward ( maybe 0.001" in the full travel of the spindle frame ) to counteract push off when milling. Some guys also had the column leaning forward towards the operator by the same amount but I wasn't really a fan of that.

Regards Tyrone.

The level I'm using is a 12 inch, .02mm/m square frame, made in Japan. I wanted a Wyler but couldn't wait 6-12 weeks for it and a differential inclinometer was way out of our price range for the size of our company. Too bad we couldn't rent one locally. I got the column straight by running the table close to the column just off the limit switch then got the column straight and the table second since the table will be used mostly in that area, then ran the table out to the end and leveled every other jack bolt at a time and then the jack bolts in between(if that makes sense to you). I checked the column as high as I could hold the level, on two planes directly on the forward vertical slideway with the head all the way down. I will check for the leveling pads first thing in the morning. I'm going to have to tweak the outriggers again to get the table high on sides(I never would have thought of that). I am certainly new to this type of work and really appreciate the help everyone, if I'm doing anything wrong please don't hesitate to tell me.

My Kuraki KBT-1003W is identical to that machine. I have the manuals for mine if there's something you need just ask.

efini13 said:

The level I'm using is a 12 inch, .02mm/m square frame, made in Japan. I wanted a Wyler but couldn't wait 6-12 weeks for it and a differential inclinometer was way out of our price range for the size of our company. Too bad we couldn't rent one locally. I got the column straight by running the table close to the column just off the limit switch then got the column straight and the table second since the table will be used mostly in that area, then ran the table out to the end and leveled every other jack bolt at a time and then the jack bolts in between(if that makes sense to you). I checked the column as high as I could hold the level, on two planes directly on the forward vertical slideway with the head all the way down. I will check for the leveling pads first thing in the morning. I'm going to have to tweak the outriggers again to get the table high on sides(I never would have thought of that). I am certainly new to this type of work and really appreciate the help everyone, if I'm doing anything wrong please don't hesitate to tell me.

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Sounds good...but be sure you have equal weight on all the leveling screws. Another way I check this is to hit the leveling plates with a hammer. Medium hit just to see if they sound and feel the same tightness. If you have a regular level you could place the side by side at 90 deg. to each other and feed the table out and watch the levels.

They should stay the same or as close as the machine can be seeing it is used and worn a bit. The best way to check the column is set a cylinder square on the table and mount 2 indicators on the front and one on the side and feed up.

Min size would be 8" x 36" . If you don't have one of those a precision blade square say min of 24" blade length. I see some on Ebay now and then. If you don't have one they are real handy for a machine shop, so you will find uses for it in other ways too. If you have a CMM they could check the square for accuracy for you too.

Also check all the way wipers on the machine. Take a .001 or .0015" feeler gage under them to be sure they are good. Then clean and check the lubrication system. That is as important then leveling. I would use Way Oil Vactra 2 or 4 depending on how heavy the work you will be doing. Possibly Garwood can help with lube.

You should re-check leveling after about 30 days it will probably change a little. Have a clue how thick your concrete floor is?

It sounds as if your employer has a good employee working for him :-) Rich

What tends to happen with well used Hor bores is the table leans down slightly at the front. Most people put jobs on the front of the table so over the years the long travel ways on the saddle wear down at the front of the ways. Also the way nearest the column on the saddle wears down more than the rear way. That applies to the front way on the table also. This can happen to a greater extent if the saddle and table ways are lined with anti-friction material.
What you may find is it's impossible to get both the ways and the table top level at the same time. I used to use a height gauge, finger clock and a slip gauge to check this out. Move the table over to one side and check from the long ways up onto the cross ways. You need to do this in four places. Back and front, left and right. After that check from the cross ways up onto the table top. Same again, left and right , front and back.
This way you'll find out what the error is.

There are two ways to rectify this situation - 1) The professional way - scrape the ways that are high on the saddle and table back to a level plane. 2) The not so professional way - lean the column over backwards to compensate for the table droop. This is where the big square on the table test comes in.

The machine will mill in the vertical plane ok but but when you use the long travel for spindle boring for instance there will be a slight descrepency. You will see this if you run the spindle out with a DTI onto the table top, then run the table back out with spindle still extended.

That's not going into the problems spindle frame droop on the column brings. Hor bores can be mighty complicated machines alignment wise.

Regards Tyrone

Thanks for the help everyone. I finally got everything leveled and square. I ran the spindle out all the way afterwards and checked it only to find the bubble was dead center. I would assume this is a good sign. Now the see how it cuts. The important part getting a "cross hatch" finish while performing facing operations. A requirement for pump gasket surfaces.

The foundation the machine is sitting on is less than ideal. About 4-5" thick. I now see the importance of grouting it in and using heavy duty anchor bolts. I hope it holds the weight.

The test we used for the spindle was to run the spindle out with a DTI attached to the spindle nose along a girder type straight edge sat on the top table. On a new machine you were allowed a deviation vertically of 0.001" in 3ft. The guys who built the machines in the shop had a fancy extension DTI holding device that allowed them to refer down from the spindle to the master guide way. That was the guide way nearest the operator.

I assume you mean grouting in the holding down bolts and not the base of the machine. It's a mistake to grout the machine base in because you will probably have to be re-levelled at some time in the future and the grout will get in the way.

I wouldn't be happy with less than a 6" depth of concrete as a minimum. I hope you don't have issues with the foundation.

Regards Tyrone.

Yes... Grouting in the studs. We are using redhead wedge anchors along with AC-100 Gold cement epoxy. Under the jack bolts we used 2" thick x 3" x 3" steel pads with 1/4" shims. I wanted to use Unisorb studs and core drill a 6" hole in the foundation 12" deep with a 3-4" thick 12" square pad(around each stud) on top of the exsisting floor but this wasn't in our budget this time. If we grow and move to a new building I will probably do this for every machine we have.

We don't have a straight edge yet. All I could do was run an indicator across the table. I ran the table up to the column and set my indicator to zero, then ran the spindle out to the opposite side of the table. The indicator read + .005". Like the table was high on the side opposite of the column. Then I ran the table away from the column so the spindle was out all the way so the table and the indicator were in the initial position and the needle returned to zero. Again implying the table was .005" elevated on the opposite side from the column. I then rotated the table 180 degrees and repeated the same procedure that again repeated the exact same results. I'm hoping I set the side support roller bearings too high on that side of the table. Otherwise the x axis ways might be worn out as Tyrone had mentioned. Don't laugh but we don't have a height gauge yet so I couldn't check the slideways the way Tyrone mentioned but there is certainly wear on the front and rear x axis slideways. I see no sign of turcite. The wear on the ways looks even front and back and on the corners only due to debris. Maybe I can weld up a fixture instead of using a hieghf gage to check the height of the slideways.

You can soon rig up something to carry a DTI for the table checks. Until you have the results of these tests it's a bit of a guessing game.

Regards Tyrone.

Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I wouldn't be happy with less than a 6" depth of concrete as a minimum. I hope you don't have issues with the foundation.

Regards Tyrone.

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It's very marginal even if the soil underneath is hard and well compacted. It'll move a lot with soil moisture content.

AlexO said:

It's very marginal even if the soil underneath is hard and well compacted. It'll move a lot with soil moisture content.

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I agree. I would wager the foundation drawing that accompanied the machine when it was new would be recommending around 3ft of concrete.

Regards Throne.

Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I agree. I would wager the foundation drawing that accompanied the machine when it was new would be recommending around 3ft of concrete.

Regards Throne.

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I'd think so, too. There used to be two superb HBM's here in Johannesburg, machines I knew well. Mint condition. In Dec/Jan when is usually very rainy here they could move quite a bit ( clay subsoil ). It's good to have the foundation water proofed properly and at least as deep as to hit the "hard" - that'd be around 2 feet most any place. Proper rebar and in the right place too. There exist cement additives which stop moisture being adsorbed by concrete provided the sand has been graded competently. They're worth every penny.

That was always the problem when I was installing used Hor bores. Not many owners could see the value of a good foundation. They all seemed to think it was dead money.

Regards Tyrone.

AlexO said:

I'd think so, too. There used to be two superb HBM's here in Johannesburg, machines I knew well. Mint condition. In Dec/Jan when is usually very rainy here they could move quite a bit ( clay subsoil ). It's good to have the foundation water proofed properly and at least as deep as to hit the "hard" - that'd be around 2 feet most any place. Proper rebar and in the right place too. There exist cement additives which stop moisture being adsorbed by concrete provided the sand has been graded competently. They're worth every penny.

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A good pal of mine installed one of the few " Kearns-Richards " SF-125 planer type machines that they made. The type with a T shaped bed were just the table just moves from side to side and the column moves in and out to provide the long travel.
It was installed in a dockyard in South Africa. He did tell me where exactly but I've forgotten. " K&R " had endless alignment problems with the machine. My pal went out there a few times and he reckoned it was all to do with the tide coming in and out.

At that time " Kearns-Richards " and the " Staveley " group had some sort of a tie up with the top class German heavy lathe maker called " MFD ", in Dortmund. I think " Staveley " were their agents in the UK. Anybody with a yen for big lathe porn look up " Deutschland-Dortmund " on the Tony's Lathes site.

They sold the Germans a planer type SE-150. I think only two of these were ever made. From what I understand the German's wanted a " Scharman " but they got over ruled.

Same old story, a long series of alignment issues with the column moving in and out. At one point the machine was taken out of operation and the column base strengthened and drilled and tapped for more holding down bolts and Jack screws.

Even that failed to cure the issues and eventually the machine was taken out of production and returned to the UK were a few years later I went to inspect it at a dealers in the North East. A very impressive machine but just too many issues for me to recommend it.

Later on I was told the machine had been inadvertently sited over an underground Spring out in Germany.

Regards Tyrone.