I had an epiphony... I think? WRT Oil passages in saddle...

After month (literally months) or rolling around in my head how to do this I think I had an epiphony today. Just want to run it past those more experienced and get a few questions answered.

There are currently oil passages in my saddle that direct oil from the one-shot oiler to the dove-tail of the cross-slide but they do not oil the flats. I've pondered for months about the best/proper way to get oil from the existing oil passages to the flats. Nearly all the solutions were a compromise until today, when looking at my saddle it occurred to me that I do not have to use the existing passages. In the photo below I highlighted a wire in red that is sticking in the passage that comes from the apron. The red arrow points to the hole where the oil comes out at the dovetail.


It occurred to me that I can drill a 2nd passage from the apron, paralleling the existing passage (but offset by about 1"). It will come out right in the flat of the saddle as shown by the red circle in the picture below. My question is as follows. My oil grooves will be in the cross-slide (shorter member) and I plan to use the Z-type grooves. To ensure I don't have to park the cross-slide in a certain spot to get oil to the grooves, should I make 1-2" long groove in the cross-slide that parallels the movement (not ideal) or make a cross-groove in the saddle (as shown by the green line in the picture below) even though it it possible this groove could be exposed if the cross-slide is moved forward enough.

I'd be looking to put my oil grooves in the upper sliding element, not in the lower fixed slideway.

Regards Tyrone

Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I'd be looking to put my oil grooves in the upper sliding element, not in the lower fixed slideway.

Regards Tyrone

Click to expand...

I will be doing that but the oil will be coming through the lower, non-sliding element. There are only 3 ways to get oil transfered from a single port on one element to the grooves on the other. #1 A witness mark that indicates when the port is aligned with the grooves on the moving element. #2 A long groove on the moving element parallel to the movement so port is always aligned (grooves parallel to movement are not good). #3 A short groove on stationary element perpendicular to movement that will always intersect some portion of the groove on the moving element.

I'm not a fan of #1, it's too open to operator error. #2 Is not ideal, but if I do this I would do it fairly short so as to be a compromise to #1. #3 Is my preferred route, but with the cross-slide moved toward it's more inward extremes this perpendicular groove would be completely exposed to air. It would be great if I could get the passage in the saddle angled enough that the port wouldn't come up where it would ever be in open-air but I can't do that because of other constraints (passage would intersect open air or I would have to drill 2 intersecting DEEP holes).

It's not a bad idea to put the oil grooves on the up facing side of the cross slide, so long as they are in the a region that they are vulnerable to dust and chips from falling in with the cross slide wound in. For example the hardinge toolroom lathe has them in the middle of the cross slide way where they are never exposed, scroll through this other discussion to see them.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...carriage-oil-system-component-removal-298548/

Alex McGilton said:

It's not a bad idea to put the oil grooves on the up facing side of the cross slide, so long as they are in the a region that they are vulnerable to dust and chips from falling in with the cross slide wound in. For example the hardinge toolroom lathe has them in the middle of the cross slide way where they are never exposed, scroll through this other discussion to see them.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...carriage-oil-system-component-removal-298548/

Click to expand...

Although I'm not sure I think that's the best approach, I don't know that it's worthwhile to discuss in this thread because it won't work in my case for 2 reasons. #1 This is a leblond, it has a short-slide (the cross-slide is ~half the length of the saddle ways) so there is no way to make a groove in the stationary element that will never be exposed. #2 It's physically impossible for me to locate the port near the center of movement without some incredibly intrusive machining and deep-hole drilling and plugging of holes on the saddle. I'm headed to the shop now, I'll take more pictures of the issues at-hand to give a "bigger picture" view.

Pictures nearly explain themselves. The apron has a recess in it that supplies oil so drill a hole in the saddle anywhere opposite of that recess and it becomes an oil passage.

In the first pic you can see the proposed holes. Because the holes have to be opposite the recess I can't just locate them anywhere. If I wanted to get the oil to come out further back on the saddle I would have to drill a series of intersecting holes and then cap the drill-points because a straight line drill hole can't reach that far back.

In pic 2 you can see where the factory drilled a series of holes then capped drill points to make cavities below. I can get the drill holes to come out pretty much anywhere in the green boxes. Pic 2 shows the cross-slide at the far back extreme; it would very rarely ever be this far back for normal operations.

Pic 3 is the cross-slide in the most extreme nearest the operator.

Dunno, I am just flat out opposed to any sort of oil port or passage that is ever exposed to falling chips etc.

Can you do something with small copper tubing to carry oil to a better location?

grind or cut a groove on the inside edge of the dovetail of the moving part, and connect that groove to the flat way of the same dovetail.

enough oil should find its way through the moving part to get to the flat way of the saddle.

I've done several re-furnishments of older lathes with inadequate means of cross slide lubrication.
I've usually drilled and grooved the upper sliding elements of the cross slide. I would also counter bore and sink the oil nipples into the casting if at all possible. Be sure to make the counterbore big enough to accommodate the business end of the oil gun.

Regards Tyrone

I think you have to ask yourself if it is required at all. That lathe has been around probably longer than you and it's still going fine. Personally, I think it is a non-issue. It is infinitely better to build good use habits, where before use every time wipe down the ways and lube the machine. Do it like practicing religion and you will never have a lube problem. Lube on its own is certainly important, but cleaning your sliding surfaces before use is more important.

JST said:

Dunno, I am just flat out opposed to any sort of oil port or passage that is ever exposed to falling chips etc.

Can you do something with small copper tubing to carry oil to a better location?

Click to expand...

The only way to make certain it's NEVER exposed to falling chips would be to route a copper line to the cross-slide. I don't know that copper tubing would ever hold up that well under constant flexing. I also don't know that there is a way to get copper tubing routed to be in a protected place; it would be exposed on the top of the saddle.

As it stands, the 2 ports coming out the sides of the dovetail become exposed if the cross-slide is moved significantly away from the operator but they are somewhat protected from falling chips because they are on the sides of the dovetail. In normal use they wouldn't be exposed, it would only be during operations that require moving the tool to the back side of the part.

I'm inclined to just proceed with the above solution I proposed. It's not ideal but I just can't see any ideal solution here and in my mind, lubrication is better than no lubrication, even if the passage will occasionally be opened up to falling chips etc. At-least if they are opened up it will be to the operator side of the cross-slide, well away from the tool, and somewhat shielded from falling debri. If it becomes an issue I can make a small shield to protect them.

steve-l said:

I think you have to ask yourself if it is required at all. That lathe has been around probably longer than you and it's still going fine. Personally, I think it is a non-issue. It is infinitely better to build good use habits, where before use every time wipe down the ways and lube the machine. Do it like practicing religion and you will never have a lube problem. Lube on its own is certainly important, but cleaning your sliding surfaces before use is more important.

Click to expand...

You're right that it's been around longer than me; longer than my dad by a few years. But it definitely wasn't still going fine. It's hard to determine if it was the absolute abuse it went through or lack of lubrication from lack of lube grooves and ports on the cross-slide, but that fresh scraping is there because it was galled. Just looking to protect my hard work from all the rescraping.

You're definitely right on developing good habits of use, and I intend to wipe it clean when I use it. But it seems silly to me that the one-shot oil in the apron lubes ALL necessary slides for 2 high-use travel elements (not the compound) except the flats on the cross-slide. Adding ports/passages for those flats kills all those lubrication birds with 1 stone and leaves only the less-used elements for manual lube (compound, tail-stock, taper-attachment).

Flexing copperline obviously will not work.

But, under "use habits", you might do as well with a "one shot" system for the crosslide itself. Put one or two fliptop or other oiler types on top of the moving part, and oil those.

Those you can have go to your oil grooves.

Also, if the crosslide does not have wipers, put some on. Wipers will assist in preventing problems, and will tend to retain oil.

CountryBoy19 said:

The only way to make certain it's NEVER exposed to falling chips would be to route a copper line to the cross-slide. I don't know that copper tubing would ever hold up that well under constant flexing. I also don't know that there is a way to get copper tubing routed to be in a protected place; it would be exposed on the top of the saddle.

As it stands, the 2 ports coming out the sides of the dovetail become exposed if the cross-slide is moved significantly away from the operator but they are somewhat protected from falling chips because they are on the sides of the dovetail. In normal use they wouldn't be exposed, it would only be during operations that require moving the tool to the back side of the part.

I'm inclined to just proceed with the above solution I proposed. It's not ideal but I just can't see any ideal solution here and in my mind, lubrication is better than no lubrication, even if the passage will occasionally be opened up to falling chips etc. At-least if they are opened up it will be to the operator side of the cross-slide, well away from the tool, and somewhat shielded from falling debri. If it becomes an issue I can make a small shield to protect them.

Click to expand...

Why does it have to be copper? We are not talking high pressure lines, just use a long enough flexible rubber or PVC hose to connect it to the source. If the line eventually fails, just replace it.

dee
;-D

Ok, after continued head-scratching, measuring, flipping that heavy beast over multiple times I think I've figured a better solution.

There is a narrow 1" band of the saddle that stays covered by the cross-slide at all times so I just have to get oil to that area. I initially missed this because I wasn't comparing travel extremes with the feed-nut in place. Putting the feed-nut into the assembly further limited the travel by about a half-inch in each direction, giving me that small bit of over-lap in the middle. So I can safely put the ports in the fixed element IF I can get the oil there.

There is currently a 1/4" dia. oil passage that transverses from the front of the saddle to the back to get oil to the rear bed-way. If I can hit that passage I've hit oil.

From the bottom of the saddle I can hopefully hit this passage and use a copper line to route the oil up to the flats.

Does this seem like a good plan? I'm really not a fan of external lines that are subject to frequent damage/abuse, but if they can be run in copper in semi-secure locations I can deal with it. My only concern is hitting that oil passage. I'm going to have to really do my homework to make sure it's straight and the hole is where I expect it to be...

ETA, with picture of bottom side of saddle added. In the picture the "no-fly zones" (places where I can't have lines, fittings etc due to obstructions are marked out in orange Xs. The burgundy line is the line the existing oil passage runs so drilling 1" deep anywhere on that line will hit oil. The 2 blue +s toward the edges are where the ports must exit on the top side of the casting, I'll have to drill them at an angle (not much) and place the fittings a bit further away from those ears. Proposed location of the port into the oil passage is the black +. The large cast "ears" will help protect the lines from any damage.

Thank you for all the help talking me through this. Now I just have to find the 5/32 copper line and parts. From what I saw the smallest roll of copper line is 12' for $70... I hate buying 11-1/2 extra feet that I will likely never use again... There is a Bijur dealer in my parents home-town but the nearest to me is almost 2 hrs away...Where do you source this tiny copper line and fittings?

CountryBoy19 said:

IF I can get the oil there.

Click to expand...

Spoken like a prospector..."There is oil in them ridges" Still need to figure out how you will transfer the feed from the saddle to the cross slide. You will have to come up from below the saddle and provide enough flexible coupling to cover the full range of motion of the cross slide. The problem with flexible things is that they seem to get caught in things. If you have the space look into miniature wire track used in CNCs.

dee
;-D

dcsipo said:

Spoken like a prospector..."There is oil in them ridges" Still need to figure out how you will transfer the feed from the saddle to the cross slide. You will have to come up from below the saddle and provide enough flexible coupling to cover the full range of motion of the cross slide. The problem with flexible things is that they seem to get caught in things. If you have the space look into miniature wire track used in CNCs.

dee
;-D

Click to expand...

Because the port/groove in the saddle can be covered at all times, I'm going to put a "cross-wise" groove in the saddle so that it will always intersect with the oil grooves in the cross-slide. Oil will come up through the port, enter that groove and make it's way down the oil passages in the cross-slide.

I really, really appreciate you fine folks talking me through this. Without your sound reasoning I wouldn't have continued scratching my head...

If I really wanted to put some time into this I could likely make the whole think auto-lubed but putting a passage up through the cross-slide into the compound and run a copper line back to the taper-attachment, but I don't want to get too carried away...

CountryBoy19 said:

After month (literally months) or rolling around in my head how to do this I think I had an epiphony today. Just want to run it past those more experienced and get a few questions answered.

There are currently oil passages in my saddle that direct oil from the one-shot oiler to the dove-tail of the cross-slide but they do not oil the flats. I've pondered for months about the best/proper way to get oil from the existing oil passages to the flats. Nearly all the solutions were a compromise until today, when looking at my saddle it occurred to me that I do not have to use the existing passages. In the photo below I highlighted a wire in red that is sticking in the passage that comes from the apron. The red arrow points to the hole where the oil comes out at the dovetail.
View attachment 210073

It occurred to me that I can drill a 2nd passage from the apron, paralleling the existing passage (but offset by about 1"). It will come out right in the flat of the saddle as shown by the red circle in the picture below. My question is as follows. My oil grooves will be in the cross-slide (shorter member) and I plan to use the Z-type grooves. To ensure I don't have to park the cross-slide in a certain spot to get oil to the grooves, should I make 1-2" long groove in the cross-slide that parallels the movement (not ideal) or make a cross-groove in the saddle (as shown by the green line in the picture below) even though it it possible this groove could be exposed if the cross-slide is moved forward enough.
View attachment 210074

Click to expand...

It's nice to see you picked up some tricks of the trade when I visited you last spring. Did you ever buy or make a hand scraper? Remember I olny lent you mine and would like it and the blade back now. You have had plenty of time by now. My address is on my card or DVD that I gave you. Again thank You for serving our Country I hope you didn't have to go back to the Mid East this summer. Rich

Richard King said:

It's nice to see you picked up some tricks of the trade when I visited you last spring. Did you ever buy or make a hand scraper? Remember I olny lent you mine and would like it and the blade back now. You have had plenty of time by now. My address is on my card or DVD that I gave you. Again thank You for serving our Country I hope you didn't have to go back to the Mid East this summer. Rich

Click to expand...

Rich, I have a few loose ends to tie up, should be done this week and it will all be back on it's way to you. Your graciousness is much appreciated! I did make a scraper handle but I didn't get around to making scraper blades for the half-moon flaking so I figured I would wait until I was done with that one and send it all back at once. I scraped the final parts last week and just have to half-moon flake a few yet.

WRT the middle-east, no planned trips back for the time being. Family is my priority right now; these are the golden years with our kids.

Richard King said:

It's nice to see you picked up some tricks of the trade when I visited you last spring. Did you ever buy or make a hand scraper? Remember I olny lent you mine and would like it and the blade back now. You have had plenty of time by now. My address is on my card or DVD that I gave you. Again thank You for serving our Country I hope you didn't have to go back to the Mid East this summer. Rich

Click to expand...

Good to see you back. You were missed here.


dee
;-D