Lathe Ways - to replace or not?

Dan1900 · Oct 29, 2017

I bought a SB Heavy 10 a month back and am in the process of restoring it. So far, I've finished the headstock, tailstock, gearbox, and carriage. I replaced all the parts that were too heavily worn and cleaned/painted the rest.

My question: I paid $300 for the lathe. Put another $300 in parts. The ways have a ridge on them, that if I took a feeler gauge to would read about 0.020" or so.

I found an unworn heavy 10 bed for sale kind of close to me, for $500. Do you think it is worth it, or just ride it out with the worn bed? This is for hobby garage shop use and learning to machine, but it would be nice to have an accurate, dependable lathe.

ewlsey · Oct 29, 2017

You can't just swap these kind of things around. The headstock, tailstock, and carriage are fitted to the bed ways. If you swap the bed, you have to re-fit all of the components.

Dan1900 · Oct 29, 2017

What kind of work would be involved in fitting them? Wouldn't aligning the headstock and tailstock be faily straightforward, considering you could adjust and shim the tailstock if needed?

ewlsey · Oct 29, 2017

I'm not an expert in South Bend lathes, but I assume the headstock sits on the bed V ways. They would have been fitted by scraping.

If your bed is worn .02, your carriage could well be worn much further. Fitting the worn carriage to the bed could be a can or worms if you really want to make the machine "right".

Dan1900 · Oct 29, 2017

I bought a good condition saddle that I was going to replace the old saddle with. I figured if the bed was worn the existing saddle would be even worse. Besides that I could try and scrape in the headstock? I guess I figured they would be interchangeable.

Richard King · Oct 29, 2017

What sort of tolerance do you planning to have? If your new to machining, you may just want to leave it be and learn how on that machine. I know a professional machine shop who had a lathe like that for years but the operator would file and emery cloth the bigger part of the shaft where the worn spot like yours has and the saddle moves out.

The machines were made to the same spec's but they were fit or match fit on the ways. Many of the beds were planned, and scraped for oil pockets. You could take apart your tail-stock and see if it fits on the new bed.

Take some photo of yours and take them with and compare. There a re a couple of members here who I'm sure would help you fit it if you live close.

I have a Heavy 10 too, nice small garage machine. Mine has good ways. If you have the extra $ and they are the same go for it.

Monarchist · Oct 29, 2017

Dan1900 said:
I bought a SB Heavy 10 a month back and am in the process of restoring it. So far, I've finished the headstock, tailstock, gearbox, and carriage. I replaced all the parts that were too heavily worn and cleaned/painted the rest.

My question: I paid $300 for the lathe. Put another $300 in parts. The ways have a ridge on them, that if I took a feeler gauge to would read about 0.020" or so.

I found an unworn heavy 10 bed for sale kind of close to me, for $500. Do you think it is worth it, or just ride it out with the worn bed? This is for hobby garage shop use and learning to machine, but it would be nice to have an accurate, dependable lathe.

How "unworn"? Time was, brand-new beds were a routine item for SB's. If you've lucked into a NOS one, go for it!

Yes, you will have to learn scraping and fit everything.

But that is waaay easier if at least ONE component - and the bed is a critical one - is at or near-enough to new specs.

Breaking-down your existing TS and carrying only the base casting of it with you to make sure it fits the new bed is a great idea, BTW. Not a great deal heavier than a stout dictionary, those TS bases.

AlexO · Oct 30, 2017

Dan1900 said:
I found an unworn heavy 10 bed for sale kind of close to me, for $500. Do you think it is worth it, or just ride it out with the worn bed? This is for hobby garage shop use and learning to machine, but it would be nice to have an accurate, dependable lathe.

This is not intended as "advice" but I would buy it - it's always good to have a spare, shixx happens. I'll put it aside and when money is available I would have it re-ground. I've no idea what that costs over there but for a competent bloke with a good ( LARGE

) grinder that would be a walk in the park. Then, with the experience you've already gathered I'd transfer all the other stuff on the newly ground bed.

steve-l · Oct 30, 2017

Your experience should be a lesson for those folks thinking rebuilding a machine is the inexpensive way to a functional lathe. It is laborious, time consuming and expensive. If the lathe in question is your first machine and you are a beginner, it is always better to buy a functional accurate lathe as a first machine. Then, with experience, perhaps the attempt at a rebuild might be in order.......maybe.

cash · Oct 30, 2017

If you want to have the ways reground I can do this.

Instagram

iwananew10K · Oct 30, 2017

I do not claim to be a pro by ANY stretch.
But I have rebuilt a few lathes mostly for my own use.
Assuming a "really" nice unworn bed and a relatively unworn saddle, you can do this yourself, on the cheap,learn a crapload in the process and come out with a few basic skills and knowledge that will serve you in ways you cannot imagine.

Monarchist · Oct 30, 2017

iwananew10K said:
I do not claim to be a pro by ANY stretch.
But I have rebuilt a few lathes mostly for my own use.
Assuming a "really" nice unworn bed and a relatively unworn saddle, you can do this yourself, on the cheap,learn a crapload in the process and come out with a few basic skills and knowledge that will serve you in ways you cannot imagine.

True as far as it goes.. and SB's have have TONS of loving time lavished on them to mostly-good effect. But still.. I'd settle for the old "80-20" rule, and go after only the areas that gave the most improvement for the least time and money.

The OP's spent-to-date dollar figures, "better" bed included, already put him but $75 shy of what I paid for my first Monarch 10EE. Which "as had", plus the compensation tricks learnt in a job shop running absolute crap "company" lathes & mills, can turn out better work with less effort than most folks actually NEED.

If a "mostly" rebuilt SB suits his needs - and it can do for years - I'd suggest drawing a hard line on budget, put further spend toward adding a usable milling machine or a lathe that was better designed and built to begin with.

Too many of these projects, the do-er bites-off too large a time & money consuming "chunk", other demands on time and funds arise, interest wanes, and the machine tool ends up in boxes, nicely painted, perhaps, but not scraped, fitted, re-assembled, hence not making chips at all.

AlexO · Oct 30, 2017

Monarchist said:
Too many of these projects, the do-er bites-off too large a time & money consuming "chunk", other demands on time and funds arise, interest wanes, and the machine tool ends up in boxes, nicely painted, perhaps, but not scraped, fitted, re-assembled, hence not making chips at all.

YES SIR !

And one could add a bit more : we ( hobbyists ) often do not give enough thought to all the other things which must be right with a machine tool. Worn gears, bad drive systems, bad spindles etc. Even with the best geometry an old Deckel FP3 with a spindle toasted by 60 years of abuse and head gears you can shave yourself with is worthless as a tool. Particularly with lathes where anybody can SEE the ways but inspecting the apron gears ( weak spot on MANY lathes ) is not that easy and often not even considered.
( this was NOT intended as rebuilding advice...

)

Tyrone Shoelaces · Oct 30, 2017

AlexO said:
YES SIR ! And one could add a bit more : we ( hobbyists ) often do not give enough thought to all the other things which must be right with a machine tool. Worn gears, bad drive systems, bad spindles etc. Even with the best geometry an old Deckel FP3 with a spindle toasted by 60 years of abuse and head gears you can shave yourself with is worthless as a tool. Particularly with lathes where anybody can SEE the ways but inspecting the apron gears ( weak spot on MANY lathes ) is not that easy and often not even considered.
( this was NOT intended as rebuilding advice... )

Yeah the apron gearing on a lathe or the knee gearing on a mill can be a real problem especially if the machine has seen a lot of coolant use.

Regards Tyrone.

machinerepair74 · Oct 30, 2017

Put it back together and run a test piece, long enough to reach over your worn area, between centers.Mic it and it will give you a idea of how bad your bed is. It will also point out if your tailstock and headstock are aligned.

Dan1900 · Oct 30, 2017

This is the 3rd lathe I'm rebuilding. First was a South Bend 9c, then 10k, and now the heavy 10. The 9c was unworn and was a cakewalk, just a matter of cleaning and painting. Sold that and bought the 10k, same thing but a little more worn and some parts did need replacing.

This heavy 10 is a notch or 2 above the 10k in terms of wear. Cleaning and replacing worn parts is really not too bad. It's just replacing / repairing worn beds that is not up my alley.

I'll post some pics here tonight of my existing bed as well as the one I'm looking to replace it with.

steve-l said:
Your experience should be a lesson for those folks thinking rebuilding a machine is the inexpensive way to a functional lathe. It is laborious, time consuming and expensive. If the lathe in question is your first machine and you are a beginner, it is always better to buy a functional accurate lathe as a first machine. Then, with experience, perhaps the attempt at a rebuild might be in order.......maybe.

Richard King · Oct 30, 2017

Here is the work or Art of a PM member. He is known as the guy who made the gold Plated Lathe. He took a scraping class years ago, estimated 1999 and he now rebuilds machines for the super rich.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...-restored-9-model-south-bend-lathe-ks-267282/

AlexO · Oct 30, 2017

Tyrone Shoelaces said:
Yeah the apron gearing on a lathe or the knee gearing on a mill can be a real problem especially if the machine has seen a lot of coolant use.

Regards Tyrone.

Always surprised me how marginal the apron gears are on some British lathes which shan't be mentioned.

Not only the width of the gears - it's also not the best mild steel...

iwananew10K · Oct 30, 2017

Yep, I mean really cheap...I'm talking old files as scrapers,and nothing more than basic metrology tools you should have anyway.

before anyone balks at the use of old files, consider the lessons in that exercise alone- hardening,shaping,and learning to put a "really" sharp edge on a piece of steel...its a little SB and there just isn't much real estate to be covered to match fit a saddle and tailstock base to a bed.

Headstock is likely a swap, contact may suffer a bit but alignment should be fine by virtue of the v and flat mounting.
And really it's a little SB - not like you are going to be hogging vast amounts.

For your own use no shame in shimming the tailstock back to height afterwards and if needed shimming down the gearbox,rack, and leadscrew bracket- IMO it is about the ONLY machine where it is acceptable because it all mounts through the top and there are no dowels.

not really a rebuild per se but a machine that has been "accurized" to whatever degree YOU can live with.

IMO unless you ARE actually a pro save the full on rebuilds for more worthy fodder and enjoy your SB for what it is.

Tyrone Shoelaces · Oct 30, 2017

AlexO said:
Always surprised me how marginal the apron gears are on some British lathes which shan't be mentioned. Not only the width of the gears - it's also not the best mild steel...

You must have worked on some crap lathes Alex. I can't honestly recall many British lathes with mild steel gears in the aprons. I can think of one or two but most of the reputable ones we discuss here on this site had hardened and ground gears.

Regards Tyrone.

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