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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by dian View Post
    people have bolted the column to the wall.
    What? The Saudi's? I'd guess some camels are less obliging than others, and they have a nasty bite at the end with the doe-eyes, plastic-surgery enhanced ears, and natural long eyelashes on, yes. "Foreplay" is more like to involve four HOURS of begging and pleading that it is French kissing.



    For a mini-mill, d'ruther bolt the head to an engine hoist boom. Mag drill ain't much use when material to be drilled has no iron in it.

    OTOH... a BirdPort began life as an add-on head, only - usually attached to a small or medium horizontal.

    If I had any regard for the head on one of these it could go onto a small horizontal, too.

    "Host" mill might still need scraped-in, but at least could hold the "goodness" invested for long years.

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    Update on the thing.

    I've been experimenting with hand scrapers and I've acquired a 1" wide(Anderson clamp) and a 3/4" wide scraper(Sandvik) and have tried to get my scrapes somewhat looking decent. This weekend I noticed my scraps induce significant amount of chatter which has been bothering me like no other. So I have been looking into the blade, the angle of edge, and the flexibility in the scraper.

    I tried a few changes (honing in a nice edge) and extending insert out a bit more which resulted in significant reduction in chatter. So that was a plus!

    I got in some back issues of home shop machinist of Michael's ward article on mini mill scraping so I've been reading that and it's been super helpful. Still waiting on my dovetail straight edge so I haven't been able to work on the dovetail flat at all.


    I've still been working on the base of the thing and it's been a challenge. I've decided to scrape the very top of the base, although non bearing, to use as a good reference for the future. It is also a great practice surface to align with the general dovetail alignment. My approach is the bring the top within the same general alignment to the dovetail flats to indicate from so that I am doing the least amount of geometric alignment to the dovetails due to their tight working area/space.

    After several attempts I had tried to align the base top(reference plane) in the x direction and went too far one time, and then went too far in the other direction to correct, and I've finally converged so that the right and left sides of reference plane is more or less parallel with the dovetail flats. I might be taking cuts a lot deeper than the assumed .0002 inch a pass if I've overshot two times now! still figuring all that out. I have attached photos of the indications. These indications were taken with just enough bearing points for the indicator to grab a measurement.

    Next on the reference plane is to bring it within general geometric alignment with the dovetail flats in the Y direction where the front of the base (closest to operator)is "low" or zero, and the back of base (closest to column) is 30 tenths or .003" "high". Assuming an average depth of cut of .0002 inches (which I might think is smaller than my cuts) I will need 15 passes to bring the front down. Because this resulted in way too many steps along the depth of the base, I'm breaking it up into two segments with a check in between to see where I'm at. I'd rather cut too little and overshoot like I seem to be doing.

    A learning mistake I made was thinking I was measuring from a surface plate, below the reference plate, instead of acknowledging that he reference plane was ABOVE the work. Can you guess how that ended up? Haha. Anyway, This suggests that the reference plane will need to drop down by 30 tenths at the front to bring it within general geometric alignment with the dovetail flats.

    A general update on my process/progress and the thought process along the way which may or may not be right but I am here to learn and share and listen to what others may suggest. Pictures here.


    Left Front measurement relative to dovetail way. zero or Low from Reference plane (above work)
    img_5210.jpg

    Left Back measurement. .003"

    img_5212.jpg

    Right Front measurement, zero again! hurrah! I'm expecting this to change slightly because for one the Points per inch is no where NEAR close to where it needs to be and because of the front/back alignment that needs to be done. But for now. I'll take it!
    img_5213.jpg

    Right back measurement, .003 also. I'll take it! for now

    img_5214.jpg

    My plan for step scraping the top to bring into general geometric alignment with dovetail flats. This is one segment, I suspect I'll need another one but will figure out how much after this is completed. If assuming .0002 inch per pass, I should be at around 15 tenths closer to target. But because I'm suspecting my cuts are deeper I should be closer. Stay tuned if I haven't already annoyed you guys!

    img_5215.jpg

  3. #63
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    Because the base was getting a bit tiring and I felt like I wasn't progressing much I decided to pull the table out and see what it looked like. Did not expect it to be anywhere near flat at all. After about 20 passes I'm stopped and took pics. Below is where I left it. I will continue when I have more energy to continue but I wanted to make some progress on the table to see what I was dealing with.

    I'm planning on making a few more passes to cover a bit more area on the table before an inspection on the dovetail ways. I'm not sure If I want to correct the table top to bring within geometric alignment of dovetail ways or to bring the dovetail ways into alignment with table. Any suggestions before I scrape the whole table top?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_5209.jpg   img_5208.jpg  

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    So laying a shim test in the hollow on your plate...what do you think the hollow might be?
    Does flat make it true to the base and square?...or should one side/or end have more take...

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    Quote Originally Posted by radiocontrolhead View Post
    Because the base was getting a bit tiring and I felt like I wasn't progressing much I decided to pull the table out and see what it looked like. Did not expect it to be anywhere near flat at all. After about 20 passes I'm stopped and took pics. Below is where I left it. I will continue when I have more energy to continue but I wanted to make some progress on the table to see what I was dealing with.

    I'm planning on making a few more passes to cover a bit more area on the table before an inspection on the dovetail ways. I'm not sure If I want to correct the table top to bring within geometric alignment of dovetail ways or to bring the dovetail ways into alignment with table. Any suggestions before I scrape the whole table top?
    I second the suggestion of first assess it with shims. Let's think about the ultimate goals and let's be as lazy as possible (i.e. let's develop a strategy that allows us completing the job with the least removal of material): as Richard keeps saying, you need to be a detective.
    I believe that, before scraping some more the top, you need to assess how straight and parallel to the top the bottom ways are. Only then you can decide where and how to remove material, given the ultimate goal of having the top parallel to the flat ways underneath (on some tables, like the Bridgeport mills you can measure parallelism between top and bottom by using a mike measuring tenths; however, keep in mind that, such measurement doesn't tell you anything directly about flatness: both surfaces could be curved the same way and still be parallel to each-other).

    Paolo

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    I think you need to install the Y screw and measure to see if the top your using as a reference is aligned to the screw axis before you go nuts scraping something that bad. Those less then par machines as so far out from the factory and you start using a less then par reference surface to scrape a less then par flat way. The flats and dovetails have to be parallel to the screw and thats the only true part you have that I can see now. Your guessing!! Put it in and set your 1 2 3 block mage base / indicator and check the outer diameter of the thread closest to the casting holes. See what you got and let us know.

    That Anderson with a HSS blade is what I used when I was 16 - 51 years ago. It's so obsolete it's insane. But hack away. When your scraping curvature machine marks cut diagonal scraped to the curves, Even if you need to scrape 3 or 4 times to get under them and then switch back to scraping opposite directions each time.

    You never show us your surface plate. What are you using? Whats the big secret. It gets frustrating helping you when you don't show us what you have and working on that not long ago banned from this forum machine.... Where's Milacron when you need him?
    Last edited by Richard King; 02-12-2018 at 11:03 PM.

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    As Richared mentioned....
    You should have a "something very true"
    Wood Craft has a 6x18x2" grade A now on sale for $25 with in store pick up so no shipping you can't beat that price.
    Most of us old timers think a 2" plate is not a perfect plate but better that nothing for your mini mill.
    if you are going to do any machining you should have a proper plate..IMHO.

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    gentlemen, I'm using a 12x18x3 inch surface grade A i picked up on Shars. that is my reference. My previous post has pictures of it with the saddle above it. I've been using that as my reference plane/plate. Don't worry, i am not using my quartz kitchen countertop as a reference.

    The top of base i want to use as a reference is independent of any other alignment feature on the mill. I am simply matching it to the current geometry of the ways to avoid altering the dovetail flats significantly. Ideally i'd like to get top of base/refrence plane to within half a thou before calling it a day and working to the dovetail flats to it.

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    Your mistaken. Unless your going to bore and bush new screw holes. Fricking up something to fix a fricked up machine. Your so green to this and making up your own rules.

    If you don't use screw that fits into a fixed axis, your only true surface (axis)and if you scrape the ways to a unknown surface it won't be aligned to screw, when you assemble the screw and later when you think your done after and start to crank to feed the saddle if it's is not parallel to the top (flat ways) and side (dovetail)of the screw it will bind up. This is your first rodeo and you came here for advise?

    You can't get away with guesswork in this forum as many of us are professional rebuilders or longtime machinists. I've been rebuilding machinery my whole life and this simple cheap Asian machine is so simple to understand if your willing to learn.

    If it was a known machine from a reputable machine builder you can reference off that surface, but as you have noted nothing on that bag of bolts Asian machine is accurate and your "assuming" it was good when new. A rookie mistake as in this trade you have to prove things before going off hog wild and Fricking it up worse then it was.

    This is a joke in my opinion:

    You wrote:

    "The top of base i want to use as a reference is independent of any other alignment feature on the mill. I am simply matching it to the current geometry of the ways to avoid altering the dovetail flats significantly. Ideally i'd like to get top of base/refrence plane to within half a thou before calling it a day and working to the dovetail flats to it."

    A green Rookie says BS like that!!! Or some funny guy trying to get attention. Matching "current geometry" is Fricked up because the fricked up Rung Fo never had any "geometry" when it was made in China!!

    Also a rookie mistake when you lower the flats the dovetail on the end you lower moves closer. It's called "vertical Rise (or fall) on a 45 deg dovetail to a flat. You scrape .001" down the dovetail moves closer .0014 The sign is on a 45 degree is 0.707.

    Most rookies come here to learn. Your a kindergartener trying to teach the professors how.

    I am willing to help you, but you can't teach us anything, we are experienced members and are obligated to point out mistakes your making so bad information does flow out of this forum.
    Last edited by Richard King; 02-13-2018 at 11:08 AM.

  13. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    Your mistaken. Unless your going to bore and bush new screw holes. Fricking up something to fix a fricked up machine. Your so green to this and making up your own rules.

    If you don't use screw that fits into a fixed axis, your only true surface (axis)and if you scrape the ways to a unknown surface it won't be aligned to screw, when you assemble the screw and later when you think your done after and start to crank to feed the saddle if it's is not parallel to the top (flat ways) and side (dovetail)of the screw it will bind up. This is your first rodeo and you came here for advise?

    You can't get away with guesswork in this forum as many of us are professional rebuilders or longtime machinists. I've been rebuilding machinery my whole life and this simple cheap Asian machine is so simple to understand if your willing to learn.

    If it was a known machine from a reputable machine builder you can reference off that surface, but as you have noted nothing on that bag of bolts Asian machine is accurate and your "assuming" it was good when new. A rookie mistake as in this trade you have to prove things before going off hog wild and Fricking it up worse then it was.

    This is a joke in my opinion:

    You wrote:

    "The top of base i want to use as a reference is independent of any other alignment feature on the mill. I am simply matching it to the current geometry of the ways to avoid altering the dovetail flats significantly. Ideally i'd like to get top of base/refrence plane to within half a thou before calling it a day and working to the dovetail flats to it."

    A green Rookie says BS like that!!! Or some funny guy trying to get attention. Matching "current geometry" is Fricked up because the fricked up Rung Fo never had any "geometry" when it was made in China!!

    Also a rookie mistake when you lower the flats the dovetail on the end you lower moves closer. It's called "vertical Rise (or fall) on a 45 deg dovetail to a flat. You scrape .001" down the dovetail moves closer .0014 The sign is on a 45 degree is 0.707.

    Most rookies come here to learn. Your a kindergartener trying to teach the professors how.

    I am willing to help you, but you can't teach us anything, we are experienced members and are obligated to point out mistakes your making so bad information does flow out of this forum.

    Richard,

    Definitely not trying to teach anyone anything other than to share and document my process with everyone. Maybe my choice of words aren't correct and thus confusing the professionals and i apologize for that. I am happy to move this to a different forum where others may find it more beneficial. I am grateful to receive any help at all from you professional machine builders so if it comes off as i'm ungrateful and going rouge than i apologize.

    My time is extremely limited with a couple hours here and a couple hours there during the week and I want to learn and practice so run with what might be a good idea in my head. If it's wrong i'll find out eventually. I am taking your feedback as a redflag that i should stop what i'm doing and reassess but I also don't want to come on here asking for help every single part of the way... which may just annoy everyone even more. Again, I don't have the space for a real machine and i want to learn to scrape somethign relatively inexpensive so i don't damage something that wasn't garbage to begin with. If the frick something up on this rig, oh well, cheap lesson learned. I will see if i can swing your Oakland class you are hosting because my desire to learn scraping is getting that much stronger the more i screw around with these castings.

    In regards to the Y axis lead screw alignment. What exactly am I measuring/checking? All I have is a casting bore at the front of the base which attaches to the saddle. There isn't another guide to support the end of the leadscrew on the other end. To clarify, the top of the base is non bearing. Am I measuring the top of the bore to a dovetail flatway?

    I understand now what you meant by y axis alignment being thrown off if not careful. Does this mean i should be referencing everything off the hole in the front of the casting to base my alignment off of? I anticipate some material will be removed from the dovetail flats, which will push the saddle down, throwing the y axis alignment off. To realign this alignment, could I remove material off the second leadscrew support housing? See attached sketch.

    Can the leadscrew bearing house be aligned to tilt in necessary direction maybe by means of scraping the bearing surface to the required angle?

    You are right Richard, I'm a green newb. :/
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails capture.jpg  
    Last edited by radiocontrolhead; 02-13-2018 at 01:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by radiocontrolhead View Post
    In regards to the Y axis lead screw alignment. What exactly am I measuring/checking? All I have is a casting bore at the front of the base which attaches to the saddle. There isn't another guide to support the end of the leadscrew on the other end. To clarify, the top of the base is non bearing. Am I measuring the top of the bore to a dovetail flatway
    Big picture: you are measuring how parallel the leadscrew is the dovetails.

    Detail picture: I take it from your pictures that the front of the mill is a milled finish and some leadscrew mounting bracket screws to the base. I think the hole in the front is just clearance for the leadscrew. If that's right, you want to get the front surface under the leadscrew bracket square to the dovetails.

    If I were doing this, I would scrape that leadscrew bracket flat on the mating surface. Get the mounting surface square to the bearing boss while you are at it. Then use it as a surface plate to spot and scrape the front surface that the bracket mounts to. Make sure to scrape it square to the dovetail, not just flat. Then you will have a leadscrew that mounts nice and parallel to the dovetails. You will have some issue, as when you want to spot the area to scrape on the front of the base, it will get lower as you scrape, then you will be spotting in a depression - the reference surface will want to ride up that transition. I would also take a sharpie and draw a line around the bracket, as mounted on the front. Then take a dremel or angle grinder and grind a "moat" about 0.01-0.02" deep on this sharpie line and to the outside of it, so when you try to spot that mating surface with the bracket, you won't be constantly be running up against the transition from newly scraped low spot to older high spot. - Do that and you will have a nicely aligned leadscrew.

    Or you could just shim the bracket until the leadscrew measures parallel to the dovetails, then scrape the corresponding amount off the bracket, as I read of Richard doing at Hurco, on this site, somewhere. Or just epoxy those shims on

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    I was thinking about this last night. If the feed screw hole in the front of the base casting is a big clearance hole and the screw is supported in a flange that can be moved and relocated and there is no rear support then I was WRONG. Your starting from scratch basically. I saw the hole the other day in the casting and figured it was a fixed hole that a bearing was pressed into that the feed screw was located in. I should have asked to see the drawing instead of going nuts. I apologize. Been having Gal Bladder pain and preparing for my 20 hour drive to Texas made me a bit crabby. Rich
    Last edited by Richard King; 02-14-2018 at 05:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    You will learn by making mistakes.
    What a concept.

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    will be keeping an eye on this as i have one of those little guys and its handy for the stuff i dont want to dirty up my bridgeport for. since i also want to rebuild my BP i will likly see if i cant mess up the mini first as i learn. not liek i can make it much worse

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    To RK. "A green rookie says stuff like that" If you didn't read his 1st post HE IS!!!!! Who cares what he does. Its his to do as he feels and is wanting to see what happens.
    To RCH Keep up the work good or bad where ever it leads and sit back when your done and be able to say " I tried and learned something along the way" at the very least.

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    Scraping is just the start of the process and most people who try to learn this skill never hand scrape enough to actually get good enough to be consistent I.E. Scraping straight down. When I was teaching welding the students who didn't listen and follow instructions I simply ignored because welding is training your muscles to run a consistent bead on a single piece of metal and until you can do that trying to weld two pieces of metal together is a waste of time.
    Surface scraping isn't much different, get a scraper and a bench stone a piece of cast iron and scrape every day, longer and longer each time sharpening the blade and learn to push metal off using high speed blades and after several weeks you might be able to scrape with consistent strokes of consistent width and do it for eight hours a day. This is work not some pussy footing bullshit for kids. I remember my dad coming home after hip scraping big machines at American Hoist all day six days a week, he would fall down on the bed exhausted. Rich King will attest to this. Rebuilding is applying scraping to correct geometry of worn machines and if you cannot scrape consistently you cannot step scrape to correct tapers on worn parts or bring worn areas to a common plane to generate straight edges to make master surfaces.
    Rebuilding is a whole new concept because correction of machine geometry has changed somewhat through the years.
    Bottom line is thinking scraping fixes problems is a fools errand, Knowing what you are doing solves problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIP6A View Post
    What a concept.
    How did HE learn THAT ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lr harner View Post
    will be keeping an eye on this as i have one of those little guys and its handy for the stuff i dont want to dirty up my bridgeport for. since i also want to rebuild my BP i will likly see if i cant mess up the mini first as i learn. not liek i can make it much worse
    I 2nd that. I don't like to mess up my good machine for drilling a couple of indifferent holes - I use a cheap 3/4 size clone.

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    Dennis..you know and I know who knows what. A lot like CNN...a shitty reporters say anything right or wrong to get attention. Their wrong 90% of the time in our eyes because we know whats good or bad. But to someone who has never been around professionals like we have been.. taught by our Dad's who wanted us to succeed.
    The unsuspecting rookie comes in here and thinks those guys who are loud and angry. So the rookie thinks they are some Guru.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dresden View Post
    Scraping is just the start of the process and most people who try to learn this skill never hand scrape enough to actually get good enough to be consistent I.E. Scraping straight down. When I was teaching welding the students who didn't listen and follow instructions I simply ignored because welding is training your muscles to run a consistent bead on a single piece of metal and until you can do that trying to weld two pieces of metal together is a waste of time.
    Surface scraping isn't much different, get a scraper and a bench stone a piece of cast iron and scrape every day, longer and longer each time sharpening the blade and learn to push metal off using high speed blades and after several weeks you might be able to scrape with consistent strokes of consistent width and do it for eight hours a day. This is work not some pussy footing bullshit for kids. I remember my dad coming home after hip scraping big machines at American Hoist all day six days a week, he would fall down on the bed exhausted. Rich King will attest to this. Rebuilding is applying scraping to correct geometry of worn machines and if you cannot scrape consistently you cannot step scrape to correct tapers on worn parts or bring worn areas to a common plane to generate straight edges to make master surfaces.
    Rebuilding is a whole new concept because correction of machine geometry has changed somewhat through the years.
    Bottom line is thinking scraping fixes problems is a fools errand, Knowing what you are doing solves problems.
    The only point I'd offer - hopefully not in any sort of argument - is that "assessing" and making a plan from what is ascertained and recorded is the most crucial step of all.

    - IOW - that "Bottom Line" is also the FIRST line, as far as sequence of events is concerned.

    It may mean one does NOT scrape because - a given machine is too far gone for it to be economic for that machine's end-value, even if it can be corrected.

    Or too poorly made for scraping to be able to make achieving and holding any effective correction.

    Connolly's book opened with scraping instead of assessing?

    I closed it. That brutal.

    Get the basics that badly wrong?

    Have to go elsewhere for a source.

    If one can scrape, but not assess and plan? Tedious-tough road ahead, and a long one.

    If one can assess and plan, but not scrape? A scraping hand can be hired.

    A professional can do BOTH, and does do. Of course he'll re-assess.

    Knowing what is to be done is part of HIS expertise just as much as being able to DO it is.

    He has to trust HIS measurements.

    Not mine.


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