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  1. #81
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    Another thing to think about is.

    Do you have the ram dovetails scraped parallel to one another?

    Lets think if the rams backside or opposite end of the clapper, was a bit narrower and as the ram feeds out the back could possibly lift up. Another important thing is to remember you have a shaper and not a jig bore. What was the spec's of the shaper when new? I have my Testing Machine Tools book packed, so looking up the spec's is something I can add later.

    If the Tool or clapper end of the ram is with-in .002" I think I would leave it alone.

    Why don't you draw a sketch of what it looks like now and take a picture of that and add it to this thread. A picture is worth a 1000 words they say.

    You never said...Did you scrape the low area on the machine? Meaning did you scrape the base ways (top front end) low or do you think it wore low there? Sorry to be so lame asking this as I would hate to have you scrape it if it was never designed to be that good.

    I was also thinking you could but a mag base on both sides and put the indicator in the center of the ram with ram centered or at it's far back spot. Then watch the middle indicator(s) and see if the back lifts up as the front droops down.

    As I said before in all my years of scraping and teaching when a student see's a big error they assume the screwed up and it can sometimes be a burr or some crud, or a error in the geometry test. Like your square being messed up. As I listened I can see how frustrated you are with it all, that's why I say you have to be patient with this. It's easy to scrape flatness but knowing where to scrape and how much to take off is a "Trade or Craft" learned over a lifetime. We used to say 4 years working as an apprentice to a Journeyman.

    This is why I sometimes get upset seeing a rookie trying to teach. One good thing about this is it shows it's not as easy as it seems. I do appreciate what your showing everyone as it shows the learning curve. It's wonderful to see your work and your learning from your mistakes.

    Thanks for sharing this. I am happy to help. :-) Rich

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  3. #82
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    Heres the numbers and checks from the book.




    Check twice, then once more, then pick up your scraper, then put it back down and check again...Then have a cuppa tea...Get it straight in your head..... Then start scraping .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demon73 View Post
    Check twice, then once more, then pick up your scraper, then put it back down and check again...Then have a cuppa tea...Get it straight in your head..... Then start scraping .
    Stone, put down the scraper, and check: Rinse repeat. get fresh tea.


    dee
    ;-D

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  6. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demon73 View Post
    Heres the numbers and checks from the book.




    Check twice, then once more, then pick up your scraper, then put it back down and check again...Then have a cuppa tea...Get it straight in your head..... Then start scraping .
    Looks like a box level would be handy for those alignment tests Demon.

    Regards Tyrone.

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  8. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    Looks like a box level would be handy for those alignment tests Demon.

    Regards Tyrone.
    I know where theres a very nice Hilger & Watts up for grabs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demon73 View Post
    I know where theres a very nice Hilger & Watts up for grabs
    Yeah, you've got first refusal on it.

    Regards Tyrone.

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  11. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurk View Post
    Thanks for the reply Richard.
    In answer to your questions / sugguestions:-

    1. The 'Sqaure' is out by approx 0.0022" over its length (so approx half of what I measured the Ram drop.
    2.I did stone the column - and identified the crappy surface in the upper portion - seams like rust was removed and the area painted - which was then removed and then left - so I tried to keep the square as low as I could and still clamp it in place. The seat for teh square was pretty good as best I could determine prior to printing the column face.
    3. Im not sure what you mean by 'scraped off the Ram base ways' ?

    The Ram was scraped to the surface plate - initially this proved troublesome until I worked out what I had cocked up - once I corrected the 'hump' it all went pretty well. I have since verified each face with the SE (it being longer than I could print on the granite).

    I have today re-tested the Ram with oiled way, Gib in place & set (all be it not scraped to fit yet) and got pretty much the same readings - so allowing for the square being out of true - I have 1.3 thou to remove at 10" back from the front of the column and take that measurement angle to the rear of the Ram ways gives me c 0.003". That would bring it back to 90 degrees - then I will add your recommended 0.001" lift at 14" extension to compensate for gravity etc.

    I think this forms my plan of attack.

    Cheers Mat
    Mat,
    I'm catching up with the thread only now and I'd wish I'd done so a few day earlier. Anyhow, I want to pick up on something else hinted by Richard: right now you have a great chance of if all three surfaces are indeed flat (straightedge, ram, and shaper base) using Whitworth's three plates principle: you know that the ram and the base match pretty well, according to your bluing. But, as Richard has hinted, it could be that one is concave and the other convex: an easy way to disproof it and, at the same time verify that your straightedge is flat as well is to spot both ram and base once more with it, hinging it as much as you can.

    Paolo

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  13. #88
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    Forgive my not getting back - been busy with the Kids & Easter break, fishing and making chips from my sandvic...

    In reply to your further questions -

    1. Ram Dovetail ways are parrallell within 0.0002" best i can measure.
    2. As things stand today - I scraped out the base ways to get the Ram to extend out such that it now sits 0.0018" over perpendicular with the vertical slides. Its a bit more than I wanted - but without having the front end in place to check alignment I am leaving it for now.
    3. I will put a photo / sketch / video or something up as soon as I get chance. Still learning how to use this forum features etc.
    4. I like the idea of the double indicator rig to check tilt on the ram - i will see what I can do.
    5. Big Errors (well lets face it they are most likely to be caused by me - its a good starting place from which to investigate and then pleasent to find its not later ;-)

    I appreciate your comments and all those on the thread - my videos on youtube are my contribution to help spread the lessons I am learning the hard way. I should put a channel info video together as - rather than 'This is how I do it' - I make no excuses or suggestions that I can do something - my vids' are my request for advice & comment about 'how should I do it' - I have had some super help and advice - and if even one viewer gains something from the videos they have been more than worth my time uploading.
    I hope to update the project soon.
    After a few days of no inking up - my fingers are still blue stained !

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    Hi Paolo, I have used the SE to check the loose Gib side of the flat ways - then used that to set the ram off and scrape the fixed gib side - just to verify that I wasn't introducing a convex or concave surface. I am really glad I invested in the SE - it has proven itself several times.
    Hinging it was pretty tricky on the 1.5" wide way but I got there.
    Cheers mat

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    Ive been looking at the Box Levels - handy bit of kit - all Ive seen have been >£100 which at the mo' is money I don't have around. I few months back there was a ruck load up for auction on ebay in the UK - they each went for under £75..... still kicking myself.
    Theres a very nice SE on at the mo' wish I had £400 hanging around looking to be converted in to cast iron.

    Mat

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    A quickie -

    What sort of clearance should there be between the Gib and the Ram ?
    I have read use anywhere from a 0.001 to 0.003" feeler, elsewhere Ive read set to slide without 'slop' ...

    Anyone ?
    Mat

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    Depends on the oil and the oiling system. Should work warm(ish) but not hot. You should be able to move the ram by hand with the "con-rod" disconnected but not effortlessly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexO View Post
    Depends on the oil and the oiling system. Should work warm(ish) but not hot. You should be able to move the ram by hand with the "con-rod" disconnected but not effortlessly.
    That is pretty much how I have it - the oil is slideways oil - quite sticky - I cant recall the spec', it is lubricated via a couple of points on each side of the dovetails 4 in total. These oil points feed two small channels (2" long) across the face of the angled and flat faces toward the ends of the ways. The central 14" of the Ram slide ways have no oil points. I am wondering if perhaps I should add some oil ways & feed points to the mid position on each side of the ways - I cant see a downside.
    mat

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    If your shaper has an oil pump and you feed too much oil it'll flow and be thrown out on the forward stroke and contaminate the surface you are machining. You absolutely don't want that on cast iron. If it hasn't got an oil pump ( continuous pumping ) you should absolutely consider installing one or it won't last long. I suppose the ram has box ways and you should have oiling points 2-3" before the ends and in the middle. Otherwise, on short strokes it can starve. I am guessing that way oil is too thick and too sticky. I use 30 weight engine oil in mine and seems 100% happy. If you add oiling points keep the channels perpendicular to the movement or you may loose pressure.

    It's good to keep in mind that a shaper is mainly dedicated to hogging metal quickly and cheaply. Splitting tenths is not it's strength.

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    About 0.001 all round, dont let it run tight, make sure the wicks are in place and the wells are way lube every use. Shes gona cut like a champ by the time youre done I reckon. My elliott 14 with milled surfaces, a touch of wear and me at the levers can hold a 0.001" over 6" no probs

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    Thanks for the replies - I will work on the thou' all round when i come to final assembly.
    Progress to date on the Ram alignment - its getting there - still trying to get repeatable measurements but at this stage its within 0.0005" of parralell - I know I was aiming at 0.001" above the working surface - Ive left it short of that as I want o measure against the box table and TBH I had had enough of scraping those dovetails for a while.
    Vids here -
    https://youtu.be/J7m1LkOh8vQ

    Sorry its 30 mins long - 2 weeks work compressed though

    Started on the carriage and saddle this week.
    Thanks again for all the advice.
    Mat

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    I am just looking over the saddle now and I have similar wear pattern all be it on a 24" long table - the 'carriage' / saddle that carries the box is high in the centre and low at the edges so it must have rocked one way or the other with each direction change. I will follow your leed and add some oil ports to the top box way. Thanks for the photos - Mat

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    Super nice work ! My shaper is a SPARTAN - similar to yours only larger and with box ways on the ram. I saw your other video where you make some chips. You need MUCH more rake angle on the cutting tool. You can't really use a lathe tool for that - you are not cutting a round part. Also, set the ram to retract just enough so that it starts cutting at a lower speed. That jerk is not good for the machine or the cutting tool. I suggest you make a shear tool and face some ( longer ) piece of mild steel in order to see how much gear noise you get and how much the ram lifts with the conrod.

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    Mat,

    I am impressed with your process of thinking through and documenting your progress. Please keep posting both here and on the tube. It is immensely useful.

    dee
    ;-D

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    Mat,

    I am impressed with your process of thinking through and documenting your progress. Please keep posting both here and on the tube. It is immensely useful.

    dee
    ;-D
    Hi dee, - kind words - thank you.

    I am currently working on the saddle & carriage ways - which are 'box ways to the top and a V on the bottom' - later today I plan to research how the hell to get the scraper into the female profile - its around 1" wide 1.5" deep one side and 10" deep the other. I will upload an update and pose the question on Youtube with a link here. Im sure there are plenty of more experienced chaps out there that have tackled such an access restriction during scraping ways.
    Thanks for your feedback - keeps me heading in the right direction.
    Mat


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