Shaper Reconditioning Scraping Advice Sought

Lurk · Mar 11, 2017

Hi, please forgive this newbie for such a basic inquiry:-
For the past few months I have been reconditioning a 1955 Elliot 14S shaper - having repaired the broken Bull gear shaft and replaced a few of the bearings in the gear set - I have moved to the Ram Slideways - where there was 0.004" of wear toward the tool head on the horizontal ways.

I am new to scraping and this is my first project - I have basic kit including - a 24x18" AA granite SP, Sandvick Hand scraper and bench grinder for sharpening the Carbide blade. I have been referring to a digital copy of 'Machine Reconditioning' and this forum as far as I can to get the basics in my mind and watching what ever videos I can find on line.

The problem / challenge I now face is in measuring the the angled faces of the Ram (male portion) of the dovetails for wear - to determine the degree of scraping required to bring it back into useful service. I have made a short video of where I am up to and will post the link below.

My initial measurements suggest the central 8" of the Ram slides are lowest points and the outer 9" either side of this central section is between 0.001 & 0.002" higher - they appear to be 'parallel' to each other. This is based off of the freshly scraped base surface measured with the jig in the first video. The previous video in the YouTube series shows my progression with the horizontal ways of the Ram - there were quite a few cock-ups on my part along the way - so its lengthy - but I felt others could gain from my cock ups !).

I would like some advise on the sequence of operation going forward - should I scrape the Ram Dovetails to completion then move onto the main machine body Ram ways using the Ram to print the body ? Or ... ?

Measuring the Ram Angled Faces - Elliot 14 S Update 1 1 - YouTube

Scraping the Horizontal Ram Ways - Elliot 14 S Update 1 - YouTube

Thanks for any advice.

Mat

Demon69 · Mar 11, 2017

Lurk said:
Hi, please forgive this newbie for such a basic inquiry:-
For the past few months I have been reconditioning a 1955 Elliot 14S shaper - having repaired the broken Bull gear shaft and replaced a few of the bearings in the gear set - I have moved to the Ram Slideways - where there was 0.004" of wear toward the tool head on the horizontal ways.

I am new to scraping and this is my first project - I have basic kit including - a 24x18" AA granite SP, Sandvick Hand scraper and bench grinder for sharpening the Carbide blade. I have been referring to a digital copy of 'Machine Reconditioning' and this forum as far as I can to get the basics in my mind and watching what ever videos I can find on line.

The problem / challenge I now face is in measuring the the angled faces of the Ram (male portion) of the dovetails for wear - to determine the degree of scraping required to bring it back into useful service. I have made a short video of where I am up to and will post the link below.

My initial measurements suggest the central 8" of the Ram slides are lowest points and the outer 9" either side of this central section is between 0.001 & 0.002" higher - they appear to be 'parallel' to each other. This is based off of the freshly scraped base surface measured with the jig in the first video. The previous video in the YouTube series shows my progression with the horizontal ways of the Ram - there were quite a few cock-ups on my part along the way - so its lengthy - but I felt others could gain from my cock ups !).

I would like some advise on the sequence of operation going forward - should I scrape the Ram Dovetails to completion then move onto the main machine body Ram ways using the Ram to print the body ? Or ... ?

Measuring the Ram Angled Faces - Elliot 14 S Update 1 1 - YouTube

Scraping the Horizontal Ram Ways - Elliot 14 S Update 1 - YouTube

Thanks for any advice.

Mat

Ah I've watched the some of the progress on that shaper. Good bimble mate.

dcsipo · Mar 11, 2017

Lurk said:
Hi, please forgive this newbie for such a basic inquiry:-
For the past few months I have been reconditioning a 1955 Elliot 14S shaper - having repaired the broken Bull gear shaft and replaced a few of the bearings in the gear set - I have moved to the Ram Slideways - where there was 0.004" of wear toward the tool head on the horizontal ways.

I am new to scraping and this is my first project - I have basic kit including - a 24x18" AA granite SP, Sandvick Hand scraper and bench grinder for sharpening the Carbide blade. I have been referring to a digital copy of 'Machine Reconditioning' and this forum as far as I can to get the basics in my mind and watching what ever videos I can find on line.

The problem / challenge I now face is in measuring the the angled faces of the Ram (male portion) of the dovetails for wear - to determine the degree of scraping required to bring it back into useful service. I have made a short video of where I am up to and will post the link below.

My initial measurements suggest the central 8" of the Ram slides are lowest points and the outer 9" either side of this central section is between 0.001 & 0.002" higher - they appear to be 'parallel' to each other. This is based off of the freshly scraped base surface measured with the jig in the first video. The previous video in the YouTube series shows my progression with the horizontal ways of the Ram - there were quite a few cock-ups on my part along the way - so its lengthy - but I felt others could gain from my cock ups !).

I would like some advise on the sequence of operation going forward - should I scrape the Ram Dovetails to completion then move onto the main machine body Ram ways using the Ram to print the body ? Or ... ?

Measuring the Ram Angled Faces - Elliot 14 S Update 1 1 - YouTube

Scraping the Horizontal Ram Ways - Elliot 14 S Update 1 - YouTube

Thanks for any advice.

Mat

You mentioned in update 10, that you managed to scrape a hump into the ram. One way to avoid that is to hinge your part on the surface plate. From the looks your ram is over 24" long, so the best you can do is put it on the diagonal on your stone, and move one end back and forth an inch or so. the part should pivot near the other end about 1/4 to 1/3 away from the end. repeat moving the other end and should get you the same result. Even print along the whole length will verify that there is no hollow in the middle.

The jig you are using to measure the dovetail may introduce some errors with having an angle block and a flat riding on the surfaces. I would try to minimize that by using a slit tube or similar spacer that would keep the corners of the dovetail away from the jig. Do a search on Kingway and you will se plenty of examples. Your surface looks pretty good, you may improve it, depending on the softness or hardness of your part, by trying different sharpening angles and attack angles.

You picked quite a challenge for a first project

...

dee
;-D

Lurk · Mar 11, 2017

Hi Dee, thanks for your comment - you got the issue with the 26.5" ram length and 24" long stone - even corner to corner I was well short - best coverage was actually over the length rather than corner to corner due to the width of the ways. I did get rid of the hump after working out what was wrong and then producing a reliable surface to seat it on and measure the height variation over the SP. It has been an education thus far ! Im still getting to grips with the rotation points - they were around 30% in from each end - but as 1" or so hangover the SP edge .. not best practice Im sure.
The jig does keep the dovetail corner edge away from any contact - that was the main problem due to the damage of the casting. Im in the process of making up a couple of small mods to the jig to replace the g clamps and square bar bit and then the gauge block skid. A 28" SE would be useful but not seen one for sale in the UK which is anyway near my budget.
Thanks again
Mat
(I like a challenge !)

Lurk · Mar 11, 2017

'Good bimble' - ? new one on me that - but thanks for watching

Mat

Demon69 · Mar 11, 2017

Lurk said:
'Good bimble' - ? new one on me that - but thanks for watching

Mat

As in good job, good effort

. When I get a mo I'll have a catch up with the videos and see if I can help any.

Cheers D

TDegenhart · Mar 11, 2017

There was a thread a few months ago started by Cash that described how he reconditioned a large grinder, far too large to be using straight edges or the like. One of the techniques was to stretch a wire from one end of a surface to the other end, then measure the distance from the wire to surface being scraped.

Do a search using "wire mike" Also search using "Cash" as the name.

Tom

swatkins · Mar 11, 2017

TDegenhart said:
There was a thread a few months ago started by Cash that described how he reconditioned a large grinder, far too large to be using straight edges or the like. One of the techniques was to stretch a wire from one end of a surface to the other end, then measure the distance from the wire to surface being scraped.

Do a search using "wire mike" Also search using "Cash" as the name.

Tom

Here is a good picture explanation of that method. http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3440&highlight=wire+method

TDegenhart · Mar 11, 2017

Go here for sag tables

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general-archive/forrest-i-found-wire-sag-table-93414/

Tom

RC99 · Mar 11, 2017

How I did mine was.

Start with the ram.

Scrape ram flats parallel and flat.

Scrape one dovetail flat.

Scrape the other dovetail parallel with it's mate.

Move onto the machine base.

Use the ram to spot the base flats. scrape them flat and perpendicular with the vertical ways.

Use the ram to spot the non gib side dovetail and scrape.

scrape the gib, which I believe is not a taper type but a simple flat type.

Images of mine.. First the flat ram ways.

Now the tool I roughly copied from Richard King, and made and used to scrape the ram dovetails parallel to each other.

Demon69 · Mar 11, 2017

Looks like you've having some fun with that ram, we've all been there dont worry

.

Your scraping looks pretty good imo. The thing id guess, by the radius of the blade, the pretty narrow cuts and light blue is you're not scraping very deep. If you run an indicator over it you want to see a good 0.0005 - 0.001 depth of cut. Is just a guess mate as I'm not there but If you tighten up the radius of the blade to 40mm - 60mm and and thicken up that blue (even heavy blue only comes in at around 0.0001 deep) you get a nice repeatable strong print. If you want to get super fussy you can always polish the tops on a clean area of the plate to see were the actual bearing points are.

The plate being smaller than the work isn't ideal, x10 for a beginner

, but its totally doable. The way I approach it is to print and scrape one end of the work, when you're flat there print the other end of the work but only take the blue from the end that was off the plate before. Hard to explain, ill do a pic when i get a mo.

The rig RC is using is based on the kingway. It doesn't need to be fancy, a pipe with a slot taken out of it and centre portion relieved. That way you get a nice positive location on the flat and dovetail surfaces, the other side could even be a faced bolt head riding the other flat way. You really need scrape those surfaces before you start measuring the other dovetail face.
If you follow RCs order of work you'll get there.

`

Demon69 · Mar 11, 2017

Like this, just take the area in red and the rest of the print will come in by itself. You can use the same MO to scrape a straight edge thats longer than your plate.

dcsipo · Mar 11, 2017

Demon73 said:
Like this, just take the area in red and the rest of the print will come in by itself. You can use the same MO to scrape a straight edge thats longer than your plate.

sorta like this? and if you are doing this in sawtooth kinda operation would you say divide your plate lengths in thirds and move in? I mean, as you are taking down the un-scraped high to be level with the rest there is 2/3 already flat and 1/3 being scraped down.

dee
;-D

Demon69 · Mar 12, 2017

dcsipo said:
sorta like this? and if you are doing this in sawtooth kinda operation would you say divide your plate lengths in thirds and move in? I mean, as you are taking down the un-scraped high to be level with the rest there is 2/3 already flat and 1/3 being scraped down.

View attachment 193348

dee
;-D

That sounds about right Dee. Get the lions share flat first then take the rest down to blend into it. Is how I did 55" of straight edge with 41" of plate.

dcsipo · Mar 12, 2017

Demon73 said:
That sounds about right Dee. Get the lions share flat first then take the rest down to blend into it. Is how I did 55" of straight edge with 41" of plate.

ok...I guess it is ok as long one accepts that the SP errors are additive along the whole length, Say you have an A grade SP that is out 0.00005*x" in the center the resulting surface that is twice the length of the SP is going to be maybe B Grade out 0.00005*2x", or am i smoking something? Also safe to assume that one has to be pretty careful with the overlaps

. you would not want to creep into the un-scraped areas

dee
;-D

Richard King · Mar 12, 2017

Demon on the lathe you scraped in your links. you checked the bed alignment when it was setting on a rough concrete floor? Was the concrete perfectly leveled in length and width? Did the bed twist on a crooked concrete floor? Or did you have the bed sitting on 3 points?

Demon69 · Mar 12, 2017

Richard King said:
Demon on the lathe you scraped in your links. you checked the bed alignment when it was setting on a rough concrete floor? Was the concrete perfectly leveled in length and width? Did the bed twist on a crooked concrete floor? Or did you have the bed sitting on 3 points?

Was set up on three points Rich, a ball bearing set in a hole at the front and two jacks at the rear. The bed it up on pedestals now, again on three points, havent checked it as yet so the jury is still out on that one

Richard King · Mar 12, 2017

This UK guy could use your help.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/machine-reconditioning-scraping-and-inspection/wear-332402/

TDegenhart · Mar 12, 2017

Demon73 said:
Like this, just take the area in red and the rest of the print will come in by itself. You can use the same MO to scrape a straight edge thats longer than your plate.

Thoughts on this approach. The scrapers I have dealt with have always said to use the original scrapes for alignment, meaning that if for instance, the ends of the way is in good shape and the center is bellied, that the ends would be brought down in unison until the center is scraped. Doing what you are suggesting will most likely make the way sloped.

Tom

dcsipo · Mar 12, 2017

TDegenhart said:
Thoughts on this approach. The scrapers I have dealt with have always said to use the original scrapes for alignment, meaning that if for instance, the ends of the way is in good shape and the center is bellied, that the ends would be brought down in unison until the center is scraped. Doing what you are suggesting will most likely make the way sloped.

Tom

prolly not a problem for an SE, but a very notable point for aligning the machine. Mat (the OP) has surveyed the ram quite extensively, i think that he first did some scraping for alignment without much spotting then once in the ballpark started spotting. There are some cases there a slight slope makes no difference. If your lathe bed is 3 thou closer to the floor on one end, but straight and parallel within, does that make a difference? But when you are scraping a knee...quite a difference. Question should always raise: A slope in reference to what?

dee
;-D

Shaper Reconditioning Scraping Advice Sought

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