What's new
What's new

Source for 30" dovetail SE?

lucky7

Titanium
Joined
Sep 6, 2008
Location
Canada
I missed out on smt's nice 30" dovetail straight edge castings years ago and am wondering if anyone currently casts one this length. I like how Richard King's SE's handle although I find my 48" HKA is a little heavy with my wimpy body for any job that's not near that length. Source for a 30" dovetail camelback? Are enough folks interested to encourage Gary Martin?

Lucky7
 
I missed out on smt's nice 30" dovetail straight edge castings years ago and am wondering if anyone currently casts one this length. I like how Richard King's SE's handle although I find my 48" HKA is a little heavy with my wimpy body for any job that's not near that length. Source for a 30" dovetail camelback? Are enough folks interested to encourage Gary Martin?

Lucky7

Contact Richard, he might have a 30". His SE are heat threaded and ready to be machined and scraped. Here is a listing for a 36" from him:

36" HK-36 CAST IRON CAMEL-BACK SCRAPING STRAIGHT EDGE CASTING | eBay

dee
;-D
 
Thanks for reply dee, I did ask Richard a year ago and no, he didn't have a 30"er. If he wants to make one I'd be interested. And yes, having scraped one of his 48" SE's they are nice iron.

L7
 
Probably should mention, a 30" SE is something I can machine, a 36" I cannot with current equipment.

L7
 
Probably should mention, a 30" SE is something I can machine, a 36" I cannot with current equipment.

L7

bummer...but...could you machine 30" of it and then get it close for the last 6". That is something you could correct with scraping even if you are 10 thou plus on the 6" section :)...

dee
;-D
 
I have a couple of Vintage B&S SE's I got down in Texas. They were machined and scraped. Now need some touch up. I was going to touch them up and then put them on Ebay. If you want one I will sell you for hmmmm casting and machining price. I can get some photo's and sizes tomorrow. Rich
 
Lucky -

Thanks for the props!

Has anyone here ever finished one of the lightweights?
Some 35 or so SE's in 3 batches were sold; but IIRC less than 10 were lightweights, in the last batch.
I always machined (later planed) them rough to be sure the castings were sound, as well as to prep them for heat treat at Elmira Heat Treating. I did not have them thermal stress relieved until after rough machining, to get the most benefit.

I do know that despite that, the solid SE's sometimes may bow down a few tenths or so over a year after the first scrape, and need touched up the next few uses over a year or so. It depends on your approach to scraping - with a biax, after HT, mine could mostly go straight to scraping after receipt, unless you wanted to change the dovetail angle, or don't like the idea of scraping up to maybe .005 - .006 off the ends quickly, to get the hollow out. Some don't like to use a biax aggressively, and would prefer to machine the last .005 if possible. Of course if you are stick scraping, that is understandable.

What I always wondered, is how the hollow/lightweights did with any telegraphing over the webs. Did the bottoms stay flat, or did the verticals telegraph when spotted, and if so how long until they settled down? The casting design, in theory, was as good as any B & S, as far as the thickness of the parts and the spacing of the webbing, so should not have been any different. But a person always wonders.

smt_straightedgecastings9.jpg


smt_straightedgecastings6.jpg


The only lightweight I kept was a poor casting (cope-drag shift from rough handling on the line, + some bad sand inclusions), sectioned to show it was scrapped, so the foundry was supposed to give a credit for these defective castings.

smt_straightedgecastings17.jpg


smt_straightedgecastings19.jpg


smt_straightedgecastings18.jpg


The lightweight was about 10 lbs lighter than a solid, if the solid was left full size (thickness)
I also sort of expected the lightweight to be more stable over all, as the sections were similar in size throughout the casting.
The castings tend to be a little rough due to the hot pours - mine were all class 40, though HT can modify that.

If anyone ever sees/hears of the patterns out there, I'd sure like to have them back.
The design is pretty distinctive. Not likely belonging to anyone else. Of course logically, they are probably long gone in the landfill.

I've thought of making another set of patterns, but as anyone who has done so knows, the return is pretty low unless somehow a person could sell a dozen at a time shipped to one address. Harder and harder to find a foundry, too.

smt
 
Cash, thanks for Busch suggestion. I had thought they went out of business, but did get a reply this morning. They are willing to cast 30" dovetail SE's but is a special order with predictable long lead time and price. Good to know that are still in business though and would consider them a back up plan.

Stephen, I've always admired the design of your SE's esp the lightweight version. I'd be very happy to buy a casting if anyone wants to sell, or from you if you feel the urge to re-make the pattern. And if you choose to remake the pattern, I'd commit to buying two castings- one for a friend who's done much to help me over the years.

I've only scraped four SE's so far, and everyone seems to move a little over time, so altho no expert, what you mention about bowing a little seems to be my experience as well. And these are properly heat treated castings. I also had two 24" cast iron parallels warp more than expected from a light surface grind after machining that was supposed to save me time. Don't think they were heat treated. One could call that a learning experience...

Best regards,
Lucky7
 
Cash told me someone from Canada bought all Bushes Patterns. Cash was at the auction, I assumed it was Core patterns?? Lucky you know those guys right? But remember Bushe castings were HEAVY, took 2 men and a small boy to pick up the 36" and bigger. Cash ebded up buying some of the long parallels and that sweet planner he kept. I will have a 12" mini camelback in a months and if anyone needs a 10' Brown & Sharpe I have one plus my castings. That guy in Portland...forgot his name has SE's too. Lucky you bought one of Defoster didn't you? It looked like a dandy when you srcaped it at B&K class. How heavy are yours Stephen?
 
Richard,

the original SE was designed so it could be machined on a BP size mill (30-1/2" long casting) & be wide and deep enough to scrape the column dovetail on a BP. At the time i designed & made the first patterns over 20 years ago, my idea was to have an all purpose casting that could even be cut to do Vee & inverted Vee ways as a master. So they are heavy. About 35 - 38 lbs. If you don't need the back edge square, another 5 lbs or so can be milled off. Probably need heat treated again, though.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ngs-fs-132743/?highlight=straight+edge+weight

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...der-no-159723/?highlight=straight+edge+weight

I can't find any of the old posts on the lightweigths I know i did a whole series on making the patterns, but nothing i search brings them up on PM. Will have to go weigh the one i chopped in half, think it's still under the workbench in the wood shop.

smt
 
Is that the pattern some jerk lost? They sure are beautiful . and so light.... You still doing planning on the side?
Now those were some great posts :-)
PS: for us new guys or lousy memories, you should tell is the story behind making them. Are you still making SE's? Did or do you make different sizes? Gary Cude bought the patterns from the guy in Ohio making them. I haven't seen him on here for a while though. Haven't seen Greg Dermer either... I remember my mom used to say all her friends were gone when she was old....what goes around comes around I guess....
 
Well it's good to check facts from time to time, as my memory is apparently unreliable. Or maybe i just have a better (now digital) scale than the old one.

The sectioned, partially machined "lightweight casting" weighs 32.5 lbs. The bottom is machined (planed) flat 3-9/16" wide. The dovetail side is about 1-1/4" thick and the flat face of the 55° bevel is about 1-1/2" wide on the slant. The casting is 30-5/8" long, the ends are not yet machined or trimmed. The sole is currently 1/2" thick at the edge, and 9/16" thick where the core stops inside of the dovetail face.

For purposes of quick mental calculation, CI weighs about 1/4lb/in^3 (actually .26lbs/in^3) It looks like the casting could be cleaned to 32 lbs even; without decreasing the dimensions listed significantly except trimming the ends square + some detail work.

Beyond that:
1/4" off the width (at the back/non-dovetail side)including some of the top bow would only lose a pound.
Taking 1/16" more off the sole would lose a bit more than 1-1/2 lbs.

Now i will have to get the scraped heavy down off the shelf tomorrow, and see how much heavier it is than i remember when i was younger. :)

Richard, the foundry down near Pittsburg told me to cut up the bad castings and they would credit me. Turns out they were going out of business and were telling customers anything.

To gloss over some minor details, the essential facts are that someone got the job to find the patterns and notify people, but he was 1.) basically brokering the transferal of all property to a foundry in CT that bought the remains, & 2.) apparently was going mostly by old invoices and told me there were buildings full of patterns. He said they were hauling them to CT by the trailor load, and I should just have the new foundry resume the work. He said they would do at least initial orders at the same price as the last invoices. I said i wanted my own patterns back and then would decide. So he said they would try to find them. After some months of this, I said go ahead and take them to CT, he said they had them and would do so. A few months later I called CT and said give me a quote. They said "we don't have them". I called the broker back and he said "well, actually, we never found them".

I would chalk most of it up to dishonesty from the original foundry, and disorganization after that, but since no one is taking credit, i'm happy to claim they were stolen. At the time it was mentioned that if you show up in person in CT, they are good people & will let you look through what they got. It's now been a few years. As anyone who has made patterns understands, there's a lot of work in them, but the residual monetary value is kind of questionable - how many do you have to have cast to cover the expense of tracking them down, say. I suppose it's always a risk if you have to ship tooling somewhere that might not be convenient to travel to in a short time window.

The "heavy" is on a high shelf, I'll get it down and weigh it for truth and comparison. :)

... I remember my mom used to say all her friends were gone when she was old..

That does happen, sadly, but one thing is to keep making new younger friends. Won't actually replace the ones we lose and maybe spent a lifetime connected with, but there will continue to be friends in new ways. As you certainly know from all the connections you make with your scraping classes and other interests. People all over the world think of you as a friend, in some way.

smt
 
I did, mostly for curiosity.
The cost of the heat-treated raw casting of a 30" is approximately $18/lb of finished product.
The bad news is that, according to their catalog, the weight of their finished 30" dovetail straightedge is 50lb.

It's true that it doesn't look like being much choice for this specific length of dovetail straightedges. However, if they don't put on diet the Busch design, they'll remain mostly special order for a body builder or somebody really desperate.

At last surplus sale they had under the original ownership I bought the raw casting for their 5ft dovetail straightedge: it tips the scale at approximately 130lb. Unless I can shave at least 40-50lb from it, I don't think it will be used much ever.

Paolo
Paolo
 
At last surplus sale they had under the original ownership I bought the raw casting for their 5ft dovetail straightedge: it tips the scale at approximately 130lb. Unless I can shave at least 40-50lb from it, I don't think it will be used much ever.

Paolo
Paolo

Their catalog has the five foot straight edge (6760) machined and scraped at 70lbs. I bought one of the 6772's (finish scraped) which is supposed to be 90lbs. I've not tried to lift it from the box yet, need to spend more time in the gym first...
 
Re the previous Busch company's straight edges, I'm not going to mention price quoted to me from the new guy as it's his business to quote individuals whatever he prefers. Lets just say the price he quoted me was not realistic. He did also mention he hasn't made any castings in the time he's owned the patterns. This is why I'd consider him a back up plan at best.

Lucky7
 








 
Back
Top