Is there an easier way to retain an oil film then scraping? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
    A "show stopper", literally, but no more than that. "Catastrophic" in that case leaves a smidgen of time to shut-down and plan recovery before the damage is severe. May well be a decision taken FOR you by the machine's controls anyway.

    Driving a motorcar or flying on airplanes?

    "Catastrophic" can be considerably less.. "convenient".
    If noticed sure...I have a B&S Micromaster with an active oiling system that failed and went unnoticed...that is the reason i have it. I assume that on a more intelligent machine there are lockouts that would prevent operating a machine when there is no oil pressure. Kinda made me think about it, i will add it to the B&S.


    dee
    ;-D

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    A pump failure is a catastrophic event on a hydrostatic way while in motion.

    dee
    ;-D
    On a rotating bearing, maybe. BIG maybe. On a large grinder, no. The ones I used to be around would shut down if the oil pressure would drop and for a couple of feet or so they were actually well oiled.

    It is however an expensive system and ( my opinion only !) not as accurate as one might think. My feeling was that they were not as stiff. But, once settled and taking light cuts a LARGE one is capable of superb accuracy making any delusions of scraping superfluous. That provided the work has been mounted right, something not as trivial as one might believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    If noticed sure...I have a B&S Micromaster with an active oiling system that failed and went unnoticed...


    dee
    ;-D
    MAJOR design flaw. I'm sure you'll agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post

    "Catastrophic" can be considerably less.. "convenient".
    Unless it's a parachute. Then, you pack it anew and jump again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    If noticed sure...I have a B&S Micromaster with an active oiling system that failed and went unnoticed...that is the reason i have it. I assume that on a more intelligent machine there are lockouts that would prevent operating a machine when there is no oil pressure. Kinda made me think about it, i will add it to the B&S.


    dee
    ;-D
    "Unnoticed" AKA "pilot error" for the golden era of that old warhorse.

    But yazz. Pressure sensors, new or surplused, and 'tronics to do something useful when they make a fuss, same-again, are cheap as dirt and far easier to wire nowadays.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    If noticed sure...I have a B&S Micromaster


    dee
    ;-D
    I'm green with envy. I hope it shows...

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexO View Post
    MAJOR design flaw. I'm sure you'll agree.
    YES, it screwed up the table ways, NO, because it would not have been sold to me for scrap price . But the major design flaw will no longer exist once i am done with it.


    dee
    ;-D

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    Default Do you remember........

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    I have seen ways screwed up by someone using a hand grinder. UGLY! and Idiotic to ruin a machine doing that!!

    I hate to dignify your question inside this famous Machine Forum Practical Machinist. You should ask this in Hobby machine forums.

    My advice is Learn how to hand scrape or 1/2 moon flake and do it that way so the machine looks original, not something some hobbyist would do.
    Hello Richard,
    I would guess that you are the Richard King who teaches scraping in various venues. I am a retired seventy year old toolmaker who learned hand scraping in my apprenticeship at Firestone in '66 From Wilbur Cox who chain smoked two packs of Camel straights during an eight hour day. If you are in fact the same Richard King who teaches others for money, why is it that you can not provide some advice and guidance to an individual who asked in a courteous manner.
    If you are better than him, in your own mind at least, keep your fingers off the keyboard until you are willing to provide assistance and share your experience, which is at least to my mind the purpose of this forum.
    Best regards,
    Bob Queberg

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    Not trying to hijack this thread but how deep is the average half moon scraping. Are we talking microns or thousands? Just curious. These little dimples acting like an oil reservoir i imagine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rigor View Post
    Not trying to hijack this thread but how deep is the average half moon scraping. Are we talking microns or thousands? Just curious. These little dimples acting like an oil reservoir i imagine.
    Generally, half-moon flaking marks are up to a couple of thousands (~50 microns) deep.

    Paolo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chip Burns View Post
    Hello Richard,
    I would guess that you are the Richard King who teaches scraping in various venues. I am a retired seventy year old toolmaker who learned hand scraping in my apprenticeship at Firestone in '66 From Wilbur Cox who chain smoked two packs of Camel straights during an eight hour day. If you are in fact the same Richard King who teaches others for money, why is it that you can not provide some advice and guidance to an individual who asked in a courteous manner.
    If you are better than him, in your own mind at least, keep your fingers off the keyboard until you are willing to provide assistance and share your experience, which is at least to my mind the purpose of this forum.
    Best regards,
    Bob Queberg
    Hey BOB ???? Did you happen to read post 7 or 12 ???? Too??????

    OH an yes I did answer his question a bit harsh as I thought about what to say before I wrote that first one. I wanted to be sure anyone thinking of grinding in lines to get 1/2 moon flaking or some oil pocket. To see why one doesn't do that to a machine tool to think about the damage he would be doing.

    Bob please read "all" the posts before offering your opinion. I have pulled crank grinders apart and some nut center punched the ways and told the customer it was rebuilt. So as a teacher and member of this professional forum I was offering my well earned advice!! I have ground ways like Mark has done as many here know as we have taught folks to do that on here for years. The OP IMHO was asking about grinding oil flaking. Have a nice day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    A pump failure is a catastrophic event on a hydrostatic way while in motion.

    dee
    ;-D
    On the machines I worked on none of the feed motors would work in the very rare event of an hydraulic pump failure They were electrically interlocked.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chip Burns View Post
    Hello Richard,
    I would guess that you are the Richard King who teaches scraping in various venues. I am a retired seventy year old toolmaker who learned hand scraping in my apprenticeship at Firestone in '66 From Wilbur Cox who chain smoked two packs of Camel straights during an eight hour day. If you are in fact the same Richard King who teaches others for money, why is it that you can not provide some advice and guidance to an individual who asked in a courteous manner.
    If you are better than him, in your own mind at least, keep your fingers off the keyboard until you are willing to provide assistance and share your experience, which is at least to my mind the purpose of this forum.
    Best regards,
    Bob Queberg
    Bob, Rich has over 5,500 posts on this site. Not all of them offer advice but the vast majority do. They are free, take them or leave them. I don't always see eye to eye with Rich but to say he doesn't share his experience is out of order.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    Bob, Rich has over 5,500 posts on this site. Not all of them offer advice but the vast majority do. They are free, take them or leave them. I don't always see eye to eye with Rich but to say he doesn't share his experience is out of order.

    Regards Tyrone.
    Tyrone, that's not what he said. Bottom line is that Richard is coming across as rude many times. His reply to the OP was entirely out of order. Here's what went on :

    1. A perfectly reasonable question from the OP :

    "After reading and watching videos on scraping I was wanting to ask why go through all the work of scraping if your main goal is oil retention. Could similar results be made by grinding small grooves into the surface and then grinding or machining to remove any irregularities caused by grooving? Please enlighten me......Rick."

    2. An unreasonable and besides the point reply from Richard :

    "I have seen ways screwed up by someone using a hand grinder. UGLY! and Idiotic to ruin a machine doing that!!

    I hate to dignify your question inside this famous Machine Forum Practical Machinist. You should ask this in Hobby machine forums.

    My advice is Learn how to hand scrape or 1/2 moon flake and do it that way so the machine looks original, not something some hobbyist would do."

    Richard in constant "attack mode" is getting tiresome. We're here to have a ( reasonable ) good time, exchange some experiences etc and not to be bullied constantly.
    Last edited by AlexO; 01-12-2018 at 06:47 PM.

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  23. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexO View Post
    Tyrone, that's not what he said. Bottom line is that Richard is coming across as rude many times. His reply to the OP was entirely out of order. Here's what went on :

    1. A perfectly reasonable question from the OP :

    "After reading and watching videos on scraping I was wanting to ask why go through all the work of scraping if your main goal is oil retention. Could similar results be made by grinding small grooves into the surface and then grinding or machining to remove any irregularities caused by grooving? Please enlighten me......Rick."

    2. An unreasonable and besides the point reply from Richard :

    "I have seen ways screwed up by someone using a hand grinder. UGLY! and Idiotic to ruin a machine doing that!!

    I hate to dignify your question inside this famous Machine Forum Practical Machinist. You should ask this in Hobby machine forums.

    My advice is Learn how to hand scrape or 1/2 moon flake and do it that way so the machine looks original, not something some hobbyist would do."

    Richard in constant "attack mode" is getting tiresome. We're here to have a ( reasonable ) good time, exchange some experiences etc and to be bullied constantly.
    I try and see the good in most people Alex. It's not always easy and lots of times I have to bite my tongue, or more to the point delete what I may have already typed.

    I've crossed swords with Rich at times and I will agree that he can come across as overbearing. He has held his hand up previously regarding this and for that I can accept that his bark is worse than his bite.

    Having said that nobody has contributed more to this site regarding scraping than Rich, that's a fact.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Thanks Tyrone.

    I hate to have to walk on egg shells when I write because of a few who seem to be on the look out when I say something not politically correct come out of the woodwork.

    I will try to be a bit more considerate. I hope the ones who seem to have a hard on for me try to be a bit more considerate too! I am sure I have more people who appreciate my writings in here then who seem to not. I have from day one of helping start the reconditioning forum. I have always tried my best to give professional rebuilding advice to people asking for answers for their problems.

    If you don't know the membership had a poll to start this reconditioning forum after few of us asked for a seperate "reconditioning forum" had a to have back back in 2013 ,something like that? Nick Muller asked for the poll. Read the stickies above.

    So I get a fiesty when I see questions like that in a forum that is suppose to be advice from professionals and answers from pro's. A forum that refuses to talk about Chinese crap machines or give advice that is not a professional method. It fired me up as I have seen machines ruined by some hack who went after a good machine with an air grinder and burr when the machine got stick slip.

    I also know some love to set me off. It must be their highlight of their day to piss me off.
    Can see them sitting behind their computer with some crazed look saying "I did it again" and are so proud of themselves. lol.

    Since my return from Europe I have been ill with the flu, I know no excuse for sticking my foot in my mouth, but I try to TEACH people on what and what not to do. I finally feeling good and wasn't coughing today. Hopefully I can get 8 hours sleep tonight in a bed. Have been sitting in my Lazyboy for 3 weekstrying to sleep, miserable flu or crud I have had.

    Hopefully we can get back to teaching people and not complaining about each other. Rich

    PS: People wrote and asked me to return after my vacation saying the same thing about Alex:

    Alex (not Richard) in constant "attack mode" is getting tiresome. We're here to have a ( reasonable ) good time, exchange some experiences etc and to be bullied constantly.

    Alex you also like to attack people. I am sure I have more support in here then you have.
    You came out of nowhere over the summer. I have been writing in this forum topic for years not months. I have read and see where you bully people. You won't tell us your real name, what you did to give out advice and pretend to be some sort of Moderator when Charles has told you, You're not.

    Many people started to write in here again after our last go around when you seemed to have left. I hope we can ignore each other as it seemed to have happened the last few monthsand we had peace.

    Thanks again Tyrone, Demon and my friends who know me in person and on here for years and not months or read one thing and comment. I do my best to HELP people. Rich

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    One of the requirements of being a successful engineer is that you need to have an ego. You must have bags of self confidence to tackle some of the jobs we do. When I look back now with the benefit/handicap of 50 years at the tools I think about some of the installations/repairs I did as a young fellow. I honestly wonder how I did some of them.

    I was looking at an old 1960's photo of a 5" spindle Hor bore spindle frame with all the covers removed the other day. The type that incorporated screw cutting and taper boring in the spindle frame. All you can see is gears and electro-magnetic clutches. I also know that what you can see in the photo is only half of what there is in there. I've had everything there is in there out and back again on site several times. I'd be shaking in my shoes now. Not just regarding the mental strain of figuring out how it all comes apart and remembering how it all goes back together again but the real physical effort required also.

    The point I'm trying to make is to do stuff like that you need bags of confidence and hardly any self doubt. Otherwise you wouldn't even start taking the covers off in the first place. So guys like Rich and one or two others I could name but I won't develop certain attitudes as a result. I can understand that, they're proud of what they've achieved over the years, nothing wrong with that in my opinion. They're the guys who don't take a backward step when the shit hits the fan on a repair job in the shop so the don't take a backward step on here either.

    If we were in a workshop environment we would soon be able to come to an understanding regarding what is acceptable banter and what isn't. We'd have a frank exchange of views and the air would be cleared to everybodies satisfaction. On an Internet site it's not so easy and things can fester.

    None of us that I'm aware of are professional writers and maybe we don't always write what we mean. Some guys can take criticism and some can't. I've found that as you get older you care a lot less of what people think of you so I'm pretty relaxed about criticism now. It wasn't always the case. Not long ago I got into a row over lathe headstock alignment with one of our Aussie members. I said things I shouldn't have really but we have kissed and made up since then. I look back at that though and think what an old fool I was to get wound up about such a relatively un-important matter.

    Let's have a New Years resolution that we'll wipe the slate clean, be kinder and more respectful of each other.

    Regards Tyrone

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    One of the requirements of being a successful engineer is that you need to have an ego. You must have bags of self confidence to tackle some of the jobs we do. When I look back now with the benefit/handicap of 50 years at the tools I think about some of the installations/repairs I did as a young fellow. I honestly wonder how I did some of them.
    Tyrone,

    I think i respectfully disagree. Ego is not a requirement, I think ego develops and is useful for a lone wolf, but detrimental in a team. Self confidence is paramount, but so is humility, you have to recognize, and surround yourself with people much smarter than you are ,to build a successful team. Now, how to herd that team of smart cats is the true sign of a leader. And that is probably, you already know, is the real art of a successful chief engineer. One needs to know enough to separate good and bad solutions, and to know who in the team you can trust to implement the best solution. An ego can destroy all of that.

    A good team is self sufficient and the better the team the less reliant it is on the chief. I have built teams in the past and even after i left, the team flourished and elected its own chiefs, it did not need to be appointed. One thing that is not taught in engineering schools is the politics of consensus. I think that is a major shortcoming in technical education.

    dee
    ;-D

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    Interesting to say the least that ego has come up in a reconditioning forum.

    My knowledge, everything I know is a sum of things learned in books, experience, or passed on from another good soul that has like passions. My drive to be the best I was probably born with, but can become a problem for me in a group setting as Dee is describing.

    Today I know how insignificant I am in this big world of ours so I try to pass on what has been passed on to me. You want me to fix your machine? That will be $100 an hour. You want to learn how? That is free, just show up as a student.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    Tyrone,

    I think i respectfully disagree. Ego is not a requirement, I think ego develops and is useful for a lone wolf, but detrimental in a team. Self confidence is paramount, but so is humility, you have to recognize, and surround yourself with people much smarter than you are ,to build a successful team. Now, how to herd that team of smart cats is the true sign of a leader. And that is probably, you already know, is the real art of a successful chief engineer. One needs to know enough to separate good and bad solutions, and to know who in the team you can trust to implement the best solution. An ego can destroy all of that.

    A good team is self sufficient and the better the team the less reliant it is on the chief. I have built teams in the past and even after i left, the team flourished and elected its own chiefs, it did not need to be appointed. One thing that is not taught in engineering schools is the politics of consensus. I think that is a major shortcoming in technical education.

    dee
    ;-D

    Maybe ego is a wrong choice of words Dee. I think you get my drift though. You need to have plenty of self confidence without drifting over the border line into arrogance. I had the mind set that I could do any job until the job proved I couldn't. I always wanted to be part of the solution and not part of the problem. I didn't beat my chest about my ability but I knew I was pretty good at what I was doing. I always wanted to be the best. To be honest I wasn't the best but that didn't stop me trying.

    Regards Tyrone.

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