Warner & Swasey #4 realignment and cleaning

cash · Jun 7, 2017

A couple of weeks ago we had to move several of our turret and engine lathes to move in a New Mori Seiki SL403. Once we had repositioned the old lathes, leveled them out we found a major problem with one of our W&S turret lathes. The operator was having a hard time to hold size and after turning the jaws he had a .005" taper in them. Upon further inspection we saw some pretty sever wear on the ways. How we were making good parts before the move, who knows.

The test bar showed a .005" drop within about 6". So now starts the fun to tear this old WWII vintage machine down and get it tuned up.

From some of these initial pictures you can see the situation is pretty dirty. We had this machine realigned about 20 years ago at the former Maintenance Service Corporation in Milwaukee. Now their shop lead man works for me so he gets to rebuild the machine again. The guys at eh shop her think this machine was reworked at least one other time prior to the early 90's.

This machine is used in daily production of one of our product lines. We have another identical machine we use as a back up.

cash · Jun 7, 2017

Here are some pictures of the machine stripped down of the saddle and turret. Now we can get a good look at the front positive way. Wear is pretty bad. After doing a hardness check on this way I am getting between 58 rc and 38 rc, so we have work thru the flame hardening. We will be making a new way out of D-2 and then building all areas that need it up with cast iron inserts.

The back flat way has very little to no wear, we will leave this one alone.

ewlsey · Jun 7, 2017

You guys are still running a turret lathe in daily production? What sort of work is it doing?

cash · Jun 7, 2017

We make specialized parts for the paper industry. Pretty much these machines get the job done and a CNC machine will do me nothing but make a dealer rich. Right next to this machine for another product line we run Mori Seiki SL machines with all the bells and whistles.

Tyrone Shoelaces · Jun 8, 2017

cash said:
A couple of weeks ago we had to move several of our turret and engine lathes to move in a New Mori Seiki SL403. Once we had repositioned the old lathes, leveled them out we found a major problem with one of our W&S turret lathes. The operator was having a hard time to hold size and after turning the jaws he had a .005" taper in them. Upon further inspection we saw some pretty sever wear on the ways. How we were making good parts before the move, who knows.

The test bar showed a .005" drop within about 6". So now starts the fun to tear this old WWII vintage machine down and get it tuned up.

From some of these initial pictures you can see the situation is pretty dirty. We had this machine realigned about 20 years ago at the former Maintenance Service Corporation in Milwaukee. Now their shop lead man works for me so he gets to rebuild the machine again. The guys at eh shop her think this machine was reworked at least one other time prior to the early 90's.

This machine is used in daily production of one of our product lines. We have another identical machine we use as a back up.

That's a typical case of coolant rot in picture 4. For the home shop guys that's what lathe gearboxes ( saddle and turret ) can look like on a production lathe. I can still smell that coolant rot smell from over here in England.

Regards Tyrone

Mud · Jun 8, 2017

Picture 4 looks especially bad because they are greased with a grease gun, they don't run oil in them.

I've never encountered one of these with replaceable ways, is that factory or added later?

Demon69 · Jun 8, 2017

wow, are there bolts hiding behind those buttons or something? Do you have to do anything with the vertical surface lower down on the bed? IIRC I've seen pics of these where the front saddle runs on the flat way nearest the operator and that front vertical surface only, but yours looks like it rides the rear flat way too.
Would it be be possible to have the whole lot up on the grinder and take down all surfaces?

Sorry for the 20 questions, looking forward to seeing this project take shape

cash · Jun 8, 2017

Mud and Demon 73, I as well was scratching my head in at first as I thought these were flame hardened and NOT replaceable. Larry right away told me the holes were plugged with cast iron ring off screws. He drilled those out in about 20 mins and the way was off. you can see from the one picture the circles on th eflat way the location of these screws.

On the picture with the saddle upside down we are just rest fitting the old way in the saddle to plan for what we will build up. We will install cast iron inserts on the positive surfaces and turcite on the gib.

More to follow as I get time and there is more to show.

Her is the video of our initial inspection.

Warner & Swasey #4 Turret Lathe - YouTube

CBlair · Jun 8, 2017

Love it and watched the video, thanks Cash for taking the time to document this.

Charles

M.B. Naegle · Jun 8, 2017

Interesting design for the ways! I wish more were like that. It shows that this was a machine meant to produce thousands of parts. Even with routine maintenance, wear will happen.

capocoreyollo · Jun 8, 2017

Nice little project. Anyone else super happy to see a W&S turret lathe still in production in the year 2017?

Bill in PA · Jun 8, 2017

I have a #4 with a good bit of wear, so I am enjoying this thread.

Are the hex turret slide ways still good?

I think that how easily the coolant washes the oil off of the ways, that these lathes would benefit from automatic way oiling. A shot every 15 minutes of spindle on time.

Thanks for this thread.

Bill

Iridium77 · Jun 14, 2017

Cash, have you thought of adding a counter weight to the back of the carriage? This could possibly help distribute the pressure on both ways instead of primarily on the front.

calvin b · Jun 14, 2017

Cash, Sir
Thank you much for this thread.. I run a #3 almost daily and sometimes I feel as if I'm a throw back to a time long ago.. It's good to see I'm not the only one that find utility in these machines.. It amazes me how much abuse/neglect they can take.. Mine is in fairly good condition. Has dual serial numbers that seems to indicate a factory rebuild at some time in it's life. ( original serial # indicates a 1941 birth date)
The spooge/swarf in the gear box looks pretty typical. Mostly chips and coagulated coolant.. Just in case any cares the proper ( W&S recomended ) grease is a type 00 ( PSC petroleum supply co is the only place I have been able to source it). The stuff is just one step thicker than gear oil and get everywhere when the grease gun sucks it up.. Machine is much happer with the right grease rather than the automotive stuff that mine was stuffed with when I got it.. Zerks are kinda oddball to as a good many are 5/16th-32. Let me know if you need any as I still have a pretty good supply of them.
Thanks again for the thread
Stay safe
Calvin B

MCritchley · Jun 14, 2017

Iridium77 said:
Cash, have you thought of adding a counter weight to the back of the carriage? This could possibly help distribute the pressure on both ways instead of primarily on the front.

Dont forget about the cutting forces acting upon the front way. If you are machining a big diameter most of the force is on the front way. I think they used to weigh down lathe carriages 200 years ago, most likely to avoid having way keepers.

Bill in PA · Jun 14, 2017

Iridium77 said:
Cash, have you thought of adding a counter weight to the back of the carriage? This could possibly help distribute the pressure on both ways instead of primarily on the front.

The bottom of the apron has a way that it rides on as well. You can see it along the bottom edge of the lathe bed.

Much of the turning on turret lathes is done with the hex turret anyway.

Bill

cash · Jun 14, 2017

Bill in PA, the hex turret ways are still good. We have to do some touch up to the scraping but nothing major. Yes, the way down on the front of the apron takes cutting load, we need to touch the scraping up on that as well.

Hunter- no worry on counterweight, besides wear the machine cuts fine, for the work it does we never overload it.

Since we decided not to remove the back flat way we are just sanding a couple thousandths of wear out of it. We are using an air file with silicon carbide sand paper and mineral spirits as lubricant.

We are checking with a level, straightedge and colors, and an indicator with the test bar in the spindle. See the pictures attached. All was going well on this machine until we had another machine go down. I have a spare W&S and I am not too busy in that department now so we will shift to my other breakdown which is in my busiest department. Grinding.

The next pictures will be on making the ways. I have material in house and just need to Machine and Heat treat.

Tyrone Shoelaces · Jun 15, 2017

That " air file " brings back some memories. I've used and repaired a few of those. The make we used, " Consolidated Pneumatic ", which although US sounding was made in the Far East, were cheap to buy but didn't last very long. They literally fell apart after a couple of years.
I see the one you are using is an " Ingersoll-Rand ".

I had a little US made " Dotco " pencil grinder for about 25 years and it was practically indestructible.

Regards Tyrone.

Demon69 · Jun 15, 2017

Hehe, I've one of those left over from my bodywork days. Never really got on with it tbh, preferred a DA to hog out with and finish up by hand.

201136d1497486854-warner-swasey-4-realignment-cleaning-air-file.jpg

Be interesting to see how prints out, if it's still got the rubber pad under it I'd have thought you might see some rolling off on the edges but idk, Should look great either way though.

cash · Sep 9, 2017

So we have installed a new Hardened and Ground D-2 positive way. It were lined up to the spindle within .001".

Then the holes were filled with Devcon plastic steel. Once this was hardened it was milled off with our router tool used for making oil grooves, then sanded smooth with 400 grit silicon carbide sand paper.

The next part of the project will shift to making new way inserts and getting the saddle back into shape.

Warner & Swasey #4 realignment and cleaning

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