Way Wiper System -- Design and Construction

wcunning · Feb 20, 2018

I've read a number of threads on here about way wiper design and construction, and after much hemming and hawing, I finally ordered several meters of Kabelschlepp standard design (BA18) to build wipers for the old Rockford(/Hedwick/Logan/Fendlind) MV100 mill that I'm restoring. Sadly, that machine never came with wipers, straight from the factory, which explains the sorry state of the ways...

So, quoting Forrest from an old thread --
"Ideally a way wiper system features triple protection. A stiff brass overlying protector protects against chips pile-ups. It should be backed by a thinner brass inner scraper tensioned against the way at an angle to push debris ahead something like a putty knife. The inner scraper should be flexible enough to allow trapped debris to roll underneath with the axis element is going away from the wiper. Backing the scraper and the protector is the molded rubber wiper which is lightly tensioned against the way. Backing THAT up is a felt wiper designed to spread lubricant and to catch any fines the wiper misses." -- Forrest Addy

The Kabelschlepps will give me the middle piece, squeegying the way clean. I have some reasonable copper flashing to make up the top layer (24 gauge), along with a nice little Di-Acro finger brake to fold that copper up. My question is this: what do I do for the other two layers? Brass shim stock for the way scraper ahead of the Kabelschlepp? How thick?
With the Kabelschlepp bolted to the saddle or knee, how would I set up something like felt wiper behind? Or should I skip that component altogether?

Finally, given that there are no original holes to match to on the machine, since it never had wipers, how should I locate holes to preload the Kabelschlepp against the way properly?

Thanks,
Will

Tyrone Shoelaces · Feb 20, 2018

Are you planning to fit the wipers while ithe machine s still in one piece or while it's in it's separate units ?

Regards Tyrone.

thermite · Feb 20, 2018

wcunning said:
I've read a number of threads on here about way wiper design and construction, and after much hemming and hawing, I finally ordered several meters of Kabelschlepp standard design (BA18) to build wipers for the old Rockford(/Hedwick/Logan/Fendlind) MV100 mill that I'm restoring. Sadly, that machine never came with wipers, straight from the factory, which explains the sorry state of the ways...

So, quoting Forrest from an old thread --
"Ideally a way wiper system features triple protection. A stiff brass overlying protector protects against chips pile-ups. It should be backed by a thinner brass inner scraper tensioned against the way at an angle to push debris ahead something like a putty knife. The inner scraper should be flexible enough to allow trapped debris to roll underneath with the axis element is going away from the wiper. Backing the scraper and the protector is the molded rubber wiper which is lightly tensioned against the way. Backing THAT up is a felt wiper designed to spread lubricant and to catch any fines the wiper misses." -- Forrest Addy

The Kabelschlepps will give me the middle piece, squeegying the way clean. I have some reasonable copper flashing to make up the top layer (24 gauge), along with a nice little Di-Acro finger brake to fold that copper up. My question is this: what do I do for the other two layers? Brass shim stock for the way scraper ahead of the Kabelschlepp? How thick?
With the Kabelschlepp bolted to the saddle or knee, how would I set up something like felt wiper behind? Or should I skip that component altogether?

Finally, given that there are no original holes to match to on the machine, since it never had wipers, how should I locate holes to preload the Kabelschlepp against the way properly?

Thanks,
Will

Suggest half-hard Brass, better-yet spring Bronze shim stock AND NOT Copper flashing.

"Off axis" plain language angled "snow-plow" style? OEM's SHOULD HAVE done that all-along, so YES!

We are otherwise on much the same page as Forrest outlined.

With one Caveat.

Few here will EVER run, let alone neglect or abuse, these Old Iron worthies even five percent the mileage they had already suffered should we start age 25 and remain active 'til 85.

Simply put, they ain't "the company" lathe or mill any longer, let alone running 24 X 6, Wartime Emergency production. They be our own family, now, should get better care, cleaning, and lube than ever before.

Don't put so much time into this as to not be able to get 'er back into USE before clocking-out yerself with all that add-on goodness still strewn about your benchtop in its third revision, still incomplete.

DAMHIKT

wcunning · Feb 20, 2018

Tyrone: I need to pull the machine apart for several reasons, so I'm open to doing either. I feel like setting the tension requires an assembled machine, but once I've scraped it in, I'll have removed a fair bit of material (very, very worn, likely from lack of wipers). Which would you recommend? How would you recommend setting up to adjust them for wear later on?

Thermite: I intended the copper flashing as more of a "hot chip shield", like what Kabelschlepp sells. I intend to do the brass/bronze for a spring-tight chip plow. What thickness of shim would you recommend? Where does one find spring bronze?

Thanks,
Will

Oh, and I've got about 60 years of use to get out of this machine given current life expectancy. The wipers are high priority mostly so that I'm not making the wear worse and so that when I get done scraping this damn thing, I won't end up needing to do it all over again *immediately.*

thermite · Feb 20, 2018

wcunning said:
Thermite: I intended the copper flashing as more of a "hot chip shield", like what Kabelschlepp sells. I intend to do the brass/bronze for a spring-tight chip plow. What thickness of shim would you recommend? Where does one find spring bronze?

Thin Copper is soo fragile in bending it soon becomes a hazard, not help.

ISTR it was MMC or one of the other "usual suspects" as stock a "package" assortment of the various Bronze shim stock thicknesses, around 12" square, plus one that is actually a Brass, for about $110 the lot.

You should have "something like that" handy as a "starter", then buy what you use-up or never had as specific singles. Most shops as DIY their own installation and maintenance, it might serve 20, 40 years, over half of its thickness never used even once, but save you downtime and aggravation several times over.

Mud · Feb 20, 2018

The BA wipers are pretty tough alone. I installed some on a VMC and they do a good job of wiping up the little fines and fuzz. Perhaps the BAS extrusioin would be all the protection you need and you could forego the brass shield. Just adding a wiper where there was none is a huge improvement. I don't see a need for felt behind the Kabelschlepp wipers, I'd rather replace the rubber lip seal when it needs it than double up.

For preload, you can feel when the lip seal is touching fully. I forget the dimension, but I made a spacer to space the aluminum retainer extrusion the correct distance from the way and used that to fabricate the way wiper body and drill the holes. Then I installed the lip seal and bolted them on. When both the inner and outer lips are touching the way I figured they were keeping the oil in and the dirt out.

wcunning · Feb 20, 2018

Mud: Thanks, that makes total sense. Did you have any trouble drilling the holes to roll pin the dovetail shapes together? There's precious little discussion of that out there... To your point about replacing the rubber, I ordered a complete replacement set along with the extrusion. I figure I don't want to have to fight through Motion Industries order process twice if I can help it. I think they ended up being ~$70/meter of BA18 and another $14.50/meter for the replacement rubber.

Thermite: I got about 20 pounds of various thicknesses of shim stock a year ago from a local machine repair business going out of business, but sadly it was all steel. I think I may inquire with a regular metal supply about some thin gauge bronze sheet, since the price per pound of shim is just outrageous if you don't need the precision.

The copper I have came from the scrapyard for a few bucks, so I'll play with a couple of test bends and see if it's too fragile after a couple of bends in a piece.

New question: on something like the dovetail of a knee mill (either Y or Z), do the chip shields and plow scrapers need to wrap down around the angled side? If so, how do you make that up without allowing chips underneath?

Thanks,
Will

Tyrone Shoelaces · Feb 20, 2018

Obviously it's much easier from an access point of view drilling the fixing holes when the machine is dismantled. I used a good quality welders magnet to stand in for the missing ways and to set up the tension. I bought it new and no welder ever got his hands on it ! I stuck that on the ways, after all the scraping of course, and offered the way wiper onto the magnet. You can put as much pressure on as you like. If you can't get a magnet clamp a piece of flat plate there instead.

I'd already pre drilled the wipers so I marked through the drill holes, centred punch the casting and then drill and tap for the fixing screws.

I can't think of the name of the maker of the way material we used now but the wiper rubber was bonded to a metal strip and they had a double edged wiper profile. They also came with a sheet metal protective strip that fitted over the wiper and deflected the hot chips away. That was plenty good enough for most applications.

Regarding the protection of dovetail ways you need to be creative with your cutting and fitting of the wipers but it can be done. Obviously the bigger the machine the easier it all is.

Edit, on browsing the net the company we used was " Buttkereit " and it appears that they source the wipers from Germany. I can't see the exact wipers we used but if you look on page 2 of their site you will style FBA-E 25D. They were the closest but I see no sign of the protective strips.

Regards Tyrone.

Mud · Feb 20, 2018

I Tig welded them together, I didn't relish working with tiny little pins. The material welded nicely.

thermite · Feb 20, 2018

I'm getting a new "take away", here. Simpler, cheaper, lower-labour wipers replaced more often.

Take a 10EE. Easy peasy to back-off the under-way anti-lift bearings. 2-by under the apron & carriage, bit of wooden wedge work, enough lift to clear an end-to-end solvent-flush to clear its metallic bellybutton lint only needs but a bare few thou.

Shot of Vactra, tune her bearings up again. Move on.

I can't buy 20 years to worry about it, Mrs. God were to lend me her Platinum Card, anyway.

2CW

Richard King · Feb 21, 2018

I agree with Mudd. You can buy those brass front wipers extra from Kabelschlepp. What do you plan on machining on your machine? If your not going to be machining blue or straw colored HOT chips then the Kabelschlepp wipers are all you need. I installed a complete system on a 54" Bullard a few years back and used the brass front wipers to protect the blue wipers from hot chips. Kab has no doubt studied all of this in there design and you need not re-invent the wheel.

They also sell a 45 and 90 degree wiper. Expensive as heck though. I sawed an then milled the straight sections to make the 45 degr. corners. Then filled the slight gap with blue silicone.

One super thing about those wipers when they wear out you can pull out the blue wiper strip and slide in a new one. What Forrest wrote about was what we did before you could buy wipers. The best wipers I have seen were on Cinc. Mills as they had spring steel piano wire bent and used as a spring to push the bronze wipers down as the wipers wore. Hardinge also used coil springs to push down their steel wipers. Now they use molded wipers One tip to all reading is as your machine wears and if your going out to buy a used machine take a feeler gage set along and take the .0015 gage and try to slide it under the wiper. If it goes in the wiper is shot.

OH thanks Thermite I see you learned something from me. When I told the memberships about using the snow plow wiper. What I taught everyone here...is you put a tapered wedge behind the wiper so as the machine moves forward to plows the chips off the way like a snow plow pushes snow to the side of a highway, instead of just pushing it forward. You said your reconditioning your machine, Have to scraped it? Rich

wcunning · Feb 21, 2018

Rich,

I certainly have thrown off enough straw colored chips so far on the machine. I chose to not go with the Kabelschlepp wipers that they sell a hot chip shield specifically to be able to fit these in tighter spaces, not originally designed for wipers of any kind. I have a reasonable brake to bend up my own, probably quite a bit cheaper than what they'd charge.

I haven't started scraping this mill yet, but I do have the complete setup to do so. I plan on building a King Way and doing a bit more practice scraping before I start on this machine, but I'll definitely open a rebuilding thread for it. Potentially over on Hobby-Machinist, since that's a bit more the speed of this rebuild. I posted this thread here mostly because all the reading on Kabelschlepp wipers I'd done so far was on here.

Side note: OtherBrother has given me a couple of scraping lessons, and also sold me my AccuFinish and Biax flaker. I picked up all of my other scraping equipment -- hand scrapers, power scrapers, camel back straight edges and such -- from a machinery rebuilder going out of business near my office. All basically with the intention of fixing up this mill.

Thanks,
Will

Richard King · Feb 21, 2018

Are you the guy who I told to contact Other Brother? I have told several people from MI to get a hold of him as he is a super scraper and has been rebuilding machines as a profession for years. He said he always knew how toscrape, but needed some tweeking...he got the tweeking at the Rockford class we had a few years ago at Bourn & Koch.

wcunning · Feb 21, 2018

Nah, I ran into him when I bought a few indicators and things off of him through a Craigslist ad a couple years ago. When I picked up a bunch of scraping equipment, I knew where I could find someone that knew how to run it, and he's been incredibly generous with his time. He really knows his stuff...

Richard King · Feb 21, 2018

Ask him how we first met... He called me about Moglice...and I told him to call Cody at Moglice...I consider him a good friend... :-) Your choice on wipers..Oh Chicago Rawhide (skf now I think) makes wipers too in 18" strips in 3 or 4 styles.

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