Really bad ebay deal…”buyer protection” did nothing!

ebay seller appalachianelectrical (Burke Kennell of Corriganville, MD) sold me what turned out to be a very bad deal, rocked my faith in ebay, and defined “unjust gain at the expense of others”

Needed a 2712E Ford engine for my forklift. (Hard to find)

Found a “good” engine with 174.4 hours!

Ford Lehman 2712E Marine Diesel on Onan 30 DEH Generator Set | eBay

Was the only bidder and made the the apprx. 370 mile/9 hour trip out to Corriganville/Cumberland, MD to retrieve it.

Get it back, and find out the cylinders are severely pitted…cracked and welded head. Not “good”

Get it touch with the seller. He offers $100 refund, or take the engine back for a refund. I state per ebay’s not as described terms, he is responsible for the return costs.

Decide to open case with ebay as negotiations with seller aren’t going too well. And I am worried with the engine smelling like Kroil and the pitted cylinders, the seller may be iffy. If I take it back and he says he never got it, what happens then?

First seller offers $100 refund. I decline. Then he “accepts” my return request. I get a e-mail that the seller will be making the arrangements to get it back. Okay, great!

16 minutes later, I get an e-mail stating the seller has asked ebay to step in and “help”

20 minutes later I get an e-mail stating ebay has ruled in the sellers favor.

Get a message from ebay stating that since I dismantled the engine I had altered it and thus I could not return it for a refund, and the ebay money back guarantee was no longer valid.

Call phone number to appeal decision. Not successful, it was basically, defend the decision we made.
“what was I supposed to do?” Take it an authorized factory service center to get a repair estimate.
“I carefully read the terms on the ebay website and it said nothing about that, how did I miss that taking something apart voids the buyer protection? I was asked to upload pictures of the damage” That’s because those terms are not on the website, its an internal policy. You can write to the legal department to get a copy of it.
“I can’t take it to a factory service center now?” Its too late.
“I’m a professional mechanic, I can easily put it back together in its “original state” Its too late.

I asked to speak to his supervisor. He had to call me back, which he did, and he stated the rep made the correct decision.

ebay said I could still work something out with the seller. But of course they’re not forcing the seller to do the right thing now!

I paid with paypal so I file a paypal dispute. It was much less involved, no uploaded pictures of the damage etc.

It should be noted that in the paypal terms there are bunch of things where paypal buyer protection does not apply. Industrial manufacturing machinery, motor vehicles, and local pick ups among other things. Thought its worth a try, what’s there to lose.

In the meantime, I contact the seller to see if he would still be willing to do the $100 refund. No response.

Takes about 7 days, and paypal rules in the sellers favor. The reason on the paypal website is “the item may not be in the same condition” Paypal did not ask me for any more info, and I could not see what the seller told them, but I am assuming he said something along the lines that I messed it up.

There was nothing to appeal the paypal decision. I did call paypal, and got a very nice lady. She said it was due to it being a local pickup, they can’t do anything there. However, if its shipped by freight, and there is a pro number that they can view signatures they can help then. She suggested going to small claims court. As I paid with a paypal balance it was the end of the line as I couldn’t file a chargeback with the credit card company.

Send another message to the seller, and he did reply saying he was sorry he could no longer give me the refund.

Reply back, I understand, thank you for letting me know.

Seller replies, “I'm sorry how it went down but we got a problem in our family bud”

I reply back asking him to explain as I am curious what the problem is that he can’t do anything for me.

Seller replies with several messages, most filled with profanity, one stating his neice has stage 4 cancer, but not saying how that relates to the deal on the engine.

Leave negative feedback for the seller stating how the good engine turned out to be bad, and how the seller didn’t make things right.

Get e-mail from ebay that they have removed the feedback. Since the seller won the case I can’t leave negative or neutral feedback.

So here I sit, minus $800, plus the time and cost of getting the engine, still don’t have a good engine for the forklift, disappointed in Burke not making things right, ebay not helping, and not even being able to leave feedback to warn others!

You could try throwing this post at their twitter page. Companies are FAR more likely to be helpful when other people can see the problem.

That sucks.

So at this point, you'd be happy to just lose $700 if you could get $100 back?

Can the thing not be rebuilt and the head welded? There might still be some residual value if other things about the engine are not shot.

HuFlungDung said:

That sucks.

So at this point, you'd be happy to just lose $700 if you could get $100 back?

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Not to mention 740 miles and the time traveling to get the thing.

Ebay obviously has staff who know nothing about engines. Taking the head off is NOTHING!!!!!):

I hate to say this , because you seem like an honest guy who was acting in good faith and got screwed, but you need to remember to keep in mind what ebay is, an AUCTION site. Yes they do have policies and procedures in place to TRY to keep things honest, but at the end of the day, you are buying an item, usually sight unseen, except for some pictures(PROVIDED BY THE SELLER), and based on a brief description(again,FROM THE SELLER). So, a good deal of funny business can fall through the cracks. I have bought and sold a lot of stuff on ebay over the years, and the vast majority of my experience has been positive. I've actually had more problems when selling than buying. I've found some people will buy an item, and when they recieve exactly what was described and pictured, they still file a claim, just to try to get a partial refund so they get the item cheaper. I'm very careful when selling anything to very accurately describe the condition and point out any problems of flaws I can find. I've been screwed by dishonest salesman, and I don't want to do that shit to anyone, but I've still had a couple of buyers complain for no good reason. I'm not suggesting that is what the OP is doing here, that motor is obviously not in "good condition" and I certainly believe he would not have bought it if he knew what he was getting. The fact remains though, when dealing with any type of sale, unless through a reputable dealer who you KNOW will stand behind his product, BEWARE! The way I look at when I'm buying on ebay, it's the same as an industrial auction, you're buying the stuff "as is", if you don't get what you expected, to bad!
For what it's worth, I too am sorry you got screwed, It does suck.

gwilson said:

Ebay obviously has staff who know nothing about engines. Taking the head off is NOTHING!!!!!):

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They also make their $$$ by people selling fakes and junk... Of course they error on the side of the seller.
Really crappy!

Also, as tough as it is to hear, Derek is right...
I have bought stuff at auction that was broken and I didn't realize it before buying. Fortunately, those lessons were small and I didn't have to drive half way across the country to get my problem home.

It just really stinks that we have to deal with folks who will pawn off junk as good stuff.

So at this point, you'd be happy to just lose $700 if you could get $100 back?

Can the thing not be rebuilt and the head welded? There might still be some residual value if other things about the engine are not shot.

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See attached snipets of messages between us, as I stated in the first one, if he gave the $100 refund when he's not forced to, that would be a nice gesture and show me he was interested in trying to make things right...but instead he said no, and ended up cussing me out. Hence my "further action" in posting this in hopes it will save someone else from getting taken if they search for his name. And warn people not to relay on the ebay buyer protection!

The head is welded, I just don't know how good, there is some porosity in the weld. Indeed it may be rebuildable, (haven't looked at the lower end) and yes, hopefully I'll be able to use some parts off of it to cover the loss, but I would have never bought it for $800 and went through the effort in getting it here if it was revealed as I suspect, the engine was stuck, and they broke it free.

That sucks! The seller's feedback looks pretty good, I'd have trusted him. I've bought several PWC engines, cylinders, etc. and I've been fortunate that they were all in good condition. If there aren't clear photos of cylinders, etc. I ask for them.

I am surprised that Ebay/Paypal is siding with sellers. A couple of years ago they changed their policy and made it extremely difficult for sellers to fight phony claims of defective merchandise, etc.

Just saw your post of communications with the seller. Did Ebay read that? Surely that would persuade them to reconsider the seller's character.

I bought an item from somebody with the same nonsense. After almost 2 months, I had not received my item, but received all kinds of excuses about a sick relative. In that case, I was finally given a refund and I left negative feedback.

I believe that it is correct that your disassembly of the engine voided any right to redress.

At that point your best deal was a full refund and you carry some of the costs (return of engine to seller) as you now "own it".

Also- you got just about what you paid for- running engine on a trashed piece of equipment.
Pig in a poke and the seller was offering in good faith- "it runs- believe to be good engine".
In other words you took a fairly large risk in buying the engine- I would not have looked at that listing and thought anything about it was a sure thing..

"It runs" is about all anyone can say about a used engine- assurances of condition only come in the form of rebuilders who warranty a rebuild.

I hate to say this , because you seem like an honest guy who was acting in good faith and got screwed, but you need to remember to keep in mind what ebay is, an AUCTION site.

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I always thought ebay would try to help if there was a problem, unlike your typical auction terms of "Sold as is where is" ebay "buyer protection" states if there is a problem with something not being as described, you will get your money back. The problem is its basically a scam-I carefully read the terms on the ebay website, and they had nothing on there in regards to "dismantling" the item voiding the "buyer protection" That was revealed to me that is due to their "internal" polices. Now if these terms were on the ebay website, like paypal lists the things that will invalidate the claim, I could see that being fair.

I am sorry for your loss. I have realized that I sometimes make costly mistakes. I have reached the point that I just shrug and move on. Checking the engine out at pick-up with a good visual inspection, and a bore scope look inside would have saved you some grief. People just cannot be trusted. Some are criminal, and some are ignorant.

Jim

Yes, lesson learned, I am glad this was only for $800 it could be much worse. Still its not right, and hopefully this thread will help someone to not depend on the "ebay buyer protection" to make things right!

Two words:

"Inspection"

"Borescope"

Apparently you never cranked the engine, or that was not part of the "as is where is with all faults" deal? For an item like that, if it cannot be run, it is "for parts", and should have a price according to that. And if you then pay a "for parts" price, you are not in bad shape if it turns out to BE "parts".

I definitely agree that dis-assembly is "altering the condition". I would not accept back an engine that "some guy I sold it to" had taken apart. Your move was to make it run at seller. If it didn't run, offer a scrap/parts price, and see if he bites. Best if that is settled BEFORE you travel.

If I had driven there on the understanding it would be run, and then discovered that was not the case, out would come the scrap/parts offer, and I'd be back in the truck headed home after he indignantly refused it.

If it was a gasser, you could have used a borescope on it. pulling an injector is more disassembly than a plug, but if it's not a runner, you need to know if it has been sloshing in tidewater for a year.....

Anymore, I'd only buy or sell on eBay as an absolute last resort -- as if that is the only possibility and even then I'd hold my breath until the deal completed successfully.

Of course, hind sight is golden, but always pay for this kind of stuff with a credit card- not a PP balance. At least the CC company will listen to why you don't want to pay. Just FYI, I'd be pissed and frustrated too!
Dan

If you take a look at the listing he said "I am selling it as knowing the engine is good"

He posted a video of it running.

The 2712E is an indirect injection engine, so not as easy as pulling an injector to use a bore scope.

The one in my forklift runs too-but not right either, its problem is the cylinders are so worn it pumps oil out like crazy.

This was not sold "as is" but as a "good engine" with "ebay buyer protection".

Some of you are missing the point of the "internal polices" of ebay buyer protection-its not up on the ebay website that disassembling something, not using a factory technical to look at it, all disqualify your buyer protection. It would have been fair if all these terms were made upfront.

Buy the gear not the story.
That add was full of red flags.

Please tell TR, I know you said in your previous post due to the generator end being bad that was a red flag, but what are the others? I need all the information I can get on what to look out for! To me, it sounded like someone trying to be being honest in saying the generator end was bad.

Being as you know where the seller is ( you have been there) I'd be tempted to drive back and return it to him. With several large friends along with me to ...you know, help unload it.
Joe