Thread: Get this Deckel FP3A out of my shop!

FYI

Just Looked up serial Number it was 1 of 4 Deckels that Northrop in CA owned!

Regards
DD

Originally Posted by deckeldoctor

The control is either 2101 or 2102 straight line control one axis at a time

Indeed. Chris, where did you conjure up that Dialog 2 BS ? That would be one seriously unhappy customer if he bought the machine buying into that description.

I don't understand.... this sure LOOKS like a very nice and high quality horizontal or vertical milling machine, what is keeping one from retrofitting it to work with a PC and EMC or something? I mean if the price was right it would be a helluva lot nicer machine than most of the imports that are out there people are retrofitting? What would stop a man from just getting a new pc based control and buying drives to suit the motors on it or retrofitting new motors? Does the machine have ballscrews in it? Are all the movements screw driven? Whats the hangup as it sure looks like it would be a great small shop or hobbyists/prototypers mill? Peace

Pete

Pete-

I was thinking the exact same thing... I retrofitted a series 1 BP by adding ballscrews, motor mounts, coolant containment, pc based control (mach3/Smoothstepper/Gecko203V's/PacSci hybrid steppers, etc) and think it was REALLY worth my time and money.

Cant see why someone could not do the same with a machine like this.

Originally Posted by nateman

I was thinking the exact same thing... I retrofitted a series 1 BP by adding ballscrews, motor mounts, coolant containment, pc based control (mach3/Smoothstepper/Gecko203V's/PacSci hybrid steppers, etc) and think it was REALLY worth my time and money.

Cant see why someone could not do the same with a machine like this.

Uh...then why aren't you buying the machine ?? We've been over this probably a dozen times in the Deckel forum, but long story short, this is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more complicated than retrofitting a Bridgeport type mill. There's the 3 motors that move the spindle gearing for starters (that have to stop and start at very precise combinations, while jogging the spindle motor just right), there's no provision for connecting seperate servo motors to each axis, there are Heidenhain scales to deal with, there's two hydraulic drawbars to think about (remember, it's a vertical and horizontal machine)...and on, and on, and on...

As DD mentions, it probably would be possible to keep the machine basically as is, by retrofitting a Heidenhain 124 point to point control...but that wouldn't be cheap and you'd still have basically just a manual machine.

But here is your project.... Google this thing 30 pages deep and find another example of the 1981 Deckel FP3A that has been retroffited to full contouring CNC on the planet Earth ! I'll be astounded if you find one. But hey, you can be the first ! You will be a hero ! With PM's SEO you will be found out and worshiped as "Retrofit God" around the world ! Do it !!!

(Chris, start preparing the invoice.... )

Originally Posted by Pete from TN

I don't understand.... this sure LOOKS like a very nice and high quality horizontal or vertical milling machine, what is keeping one from retrofitting it to work with a PC and EMC or something? I mean if the price was right it would be a helluva lot nicer machine than most of the imports that are out there people are retrofitting? What would stop a man from just getting a new pc based control and buying drives to suit the motors on it or retrofitting new motors? Does the machine have ballscrews in it? Are all the movements screw driven? Whats the hangup as it sure looks like it would be a great small shop or hobbyists/prototypers mill?

Read the below link to get some sense of the complexities involved. Of course years later, the guy still hasn't finished. And his even had ballscrews and seperate axis motors already. Plus he's using a control for retrofit that is more "native" to that machine.

Wessley's Project - Deckel NC Milling Machine Web Site

It's fascinating though that Deckel offered the CNC Deckels with so many different controls over the years...besides the standard issue Grundig Dialogs, they offered 3M Siemens, Dynapath, Hurco, Heidenhain and even a few Fanucs were done...must have been some really smart engineers over there to pull that off.

And you think a Linotype is complicated.

Tom

Thanks for the input guys, especially Don. I figured as much. Going to be a shame to take her to the scrap yard, but I desperately need the space. I'll have the table available in a few weeks.

Originally Posted by Milacron

There's the 3 motors that move the spindle gearing for starters (that have to stop and start at very precise combinations, while jogging the spindle motor just right), )

Is that true of this particular machine? Does the three motor set up reside in the bumped out operators side panel?

Originally Posted by sneebot

Is that true of this particular machine? Does the three motor set up reside in the bumped out operators side panel?

Yep. What alternative did you imagine might be in there ?

Originally Posted by TDegenhart

And you think a Linotype is complicated.

It's interesting the "Wessley Project" came to an abrupt end when he got to the motorized spindle gear box issues. (no new entries for over a year now) I figure his brain seized up at that point.

The three motors you are talking about do they move the Y axis ram in and out or are they simply to run the spindle of the horizontal and vertical sections. The table X and Z axes surely have some sort of screw driven by a motor no? I looked thru that link and it really does not show much about it but honestly I could not find a way to change to the next page if there was one. What are the travels on that machine? The one picture shows it cutting holes in a largish plate that appears to be pretty big. Unless it was cut in multiple positions it appears to have some decent travels. It is unfortunate it is all the way out in California as I would be up to trying it if the machine was cheap enough. Right now I am in the middle of trying to get my used Cincinatti VMC moved over to my shop. The newish AC servo drives out today are damn near plug and play anymore aside from adapting them to the machine and are powerful and accurate. I will admit the picture of the machine with the side covers off reveals some rather complex movements inside the column. Peace

Pete

Dunno, it doesn't appear to have the same gearbox arrangement as the Deckel CNCs so I just figured it was something completely different-- I'd never really pondered on this design before.

Originally Posted by Pete from TN

The three motors you are talking about do they move the Y axis ram in and out or are they simply to run the spindle of the horizontal and vertical sections. The table X and Z axes surely have some sort of screw driven by a motor no? I looked thru that link and it really does not show much about it but honestly I could not find a way to change to the next page if there was one. What are the travels on that machine? The one picture shows it cutting holes in a largish plate that appears to be pretty big. Unless it was cut in multiple positions it appears to have some decent travels. It is unfortunate it is all the way out in California as I would be up to trying it if the machine was cheap enough. Right now I am in the middle of trying to get my used Cincinatti VMC moved over to my shop. The newish AC servo drives out today are damn near plug and play anymore aside from adapting them to the machine and are powerful and accurate. I will admit the picture of the machine with the side covers off reveals some rather complex movements inside the column. Peace

Are you talking about Rohner's Deckel or Wessley's Deckel ? Rohner's Deckel has one servo feed motor at the rear which drives one axis at a time via electric clutches located near each handwheel. To convert it to proper contouring CNC you'd have to pull that motor off, throw it in the trash, and add a seperate motor to each axis (which would be especially problematic for the Z axis) I suppose the electric clutches might still come in handy to disconnect the handwheels during auto feed motions but yet more complexity to add that in the CNC functions.

But you may mean the three small DC motors that change the spindle gearing.. Every time you select a different spindle speed 2 or 3 of those motors (depending on speed you select) have to turn gears to engage to produce the speed you selected. There is a complex system of cams and limit switches to stop each gear rotation at the right place. All the while the spindle has to jog just a little back and forth automatically so the gears mesh ok.

IMHO, if you want to retrofit a Deckel type mill a much better candidate is the Maho MH600e2 as that one has VFD driven spindle and therefore escapes the complexities of that system and might even provide things like rigid tapping possiblities and would run quietier. In fact there is a guy in the Midwest who does just that...retrofits Maho's to a Fagor control..but only the e2 versions.

Originally Posted by sneebot

Dunno, it doesn't appear to have the same gearbox arrangement as the Deckel CNCs so I just figured it was something completely different-- I'd never really pondered on this design before.

Seeing as the plastic cover isn't transparent I'm a bit mystified how it "appears" different, but I guess you mean it doesn't have the "bulge" in the same place. Seems like I have the parts book on that model still but can't remember what I did with it. I do recall that when you change spindle speeds on the 2101 control you hear the same gear rotations, clicking noises and spindle jog that one experiences on the later NC models.

How rare are the tables with the dividing head hardware compared to the digital tables?

IIRC DD told me his control retrofits have hundreds of lines of logic just for the gearshifting.

I wonder if you could use just 2 or 3 gear speeds of an NC machine and use a spindle drive to vary the spindle speed like is done on the hybrid lathes? Could even be a manual shift that way.

Originally Posted by Mud

I wonder if you could use just 2 or 3 gear speeds of an NC machine and use a spindle drive to vary the spindle speed like is done on the hybrid lathes? Could even be a manual shift that way.

I suppose one could do all sorts of things but better just to forget it and retrofit a Maho e2 or 1991 FP3NC/D11 Flip head with AC variable spindle (Bosch VFD in that case) That Deckel does have a backgear that engages automatically at around 600 rpm I think...perhaps the Maho e2 does as well..can't remember now.

But I mention the Maho e2 as those are relatively common in this country whereas the only 1991 or newer FP3NC/D11 that has ever surfaced in the country is the one I sold some months ago. So the Maho is obtainable but the Deckel is essentially unobtanium.

Re dividing head universal table rarity...that would be a question for Franz Singer. I've never had one like that...all of mine, including the rarest universal Deckel table of them all, (the smaller FP2NC version) have had encoders.

It seems the short answer regarding this machine is "Deckel should be ashamed of ever badging it".

Were any designers harmed after the production of it?

Originally Posted by Milacron

It's fascinating though that Deckel offered the CNC Deckels with so many different controls over the years...besides the standard issue Grundig Dialogs, they offered 3M Siemens, Dynapath, Hurco, Heidenhain and even a few Fanucs were done...must have been some really smart engineers over there to pull that off.

On this side of the pond I would think it meant purchasing couldn't get along with anyone.

Originally Posted by Milacron

That Deckel does have a backgear that engages automatically at around 600 rpm I think...perhaps the Maho e2 does as well..can't remember now.

The SHW/FP7NC & FP6NC does that with the Dialog4, around 400 RPM. But I supose that's not relevant here, plus there are very few of those in the US. SHW built some smaller versions too but I've only seen them for sale in Europe.